Neue Testversion 18.40b3

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Martin Huber »

NoSi wrote:Ich hätte - mit Blick auf den neuen Ebenen-Dialog - einen Vorschlag bzgl. der «Drag & Drop Empfangsebenen»:
Ich halte mich ja für leidlich verständig, aber mit der Beschreibung bin ich erst mal abgefüllt. Muss das so technisch? Könnte man im Selektor für die Ebenen evtl. einfach noch "Empfangsebenen" anbieten, die entsprechende Kindelemente haben? "Untechnisch" benannt? Dann wird es auch verwendet, weil es keine vergleichsweise komplexen Vorbereitungen braucht, für die ich mich dann noch zu allem Überfluss jeweils an die erforderlichen Benennungen erinnern muss.

Ich denke, dass in diesem Ansatz ein enormes Potential steckt, aber so, wie sich das liest, erscheint es mir für (normale) Anwender praktisch unbenutzbar. Wobei ich einräume, dass da jetzt so viele Optionen angeboten werden, dass es mit "ein paar Empfangsebenen anbieten" womöglich nicht so ganz trivial wird.
Diese Funktion wurde vor geraumer Zeit mal zu Testzwecken eingebaut. Sie war nie und ist auch momentan nicht für Endanwender gedacht, daher ist sie auch nicht offiziell dokumentiert. Ich habe die paar Zeilen nur mal zusammengeschrieben, weil im öffentlichen Forum zu dem Thema eine Diskussion war.

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Martin Huber »

JulianZI wrote:Übrigens - ich vermisse den Ebeneeigenschaftsdialog schon etwas. Zum einen ist es verwirrend, dass auf einen Klick auf das entsprechende Menü kein Dialog mehr kommt, sonderen nur der Ebenendialog in den Vordergrund geht (wirkt fast wie unbeabsichtigt), zum anderen ist es auch recht umständlich den Ebenenamen zu ändern, sofern dies möglich ist (bei Textebenen geht es nicht).
Warum kann man bei Textebenen nicht den Namen ändern? Bei mir geht das. Funktioniert das normale Klicken in der Ebenenliste nicht?
Persönlich sehe ich das auch nicht als umständlich an, da man einfach nur auf den vorhanden Namen klicken muss.
JulianZI wrote:Ich denke der Ebeneeigenschaftsdialog hat nocht seine Sinn und ware auch ein gutes Zuhause für die diversen optionen für Zielebenen.
Es ist momentan recht unwahrscheinlich, dass der alte Ebeneneigenschaften-Dialog zurückkommt. Wenn das mit dem Namen allgemein als Problem angesehen wird, dann kann man den Namen evtl. in den Ebenenattributen aufnehmen.

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Martin Huber »

ellhel wrote:kann es sein das "Lasso /erneut wählen" nicht mit Auswahlen funktioniert, die man mit dem Maskenpinsel erstellt hat ???
Ja, das kann sein. Wir haben die Funktion eine halbe Stunde vor dem Erzeugen der Testversion "reingehackt", und dementsprechend ist sie reichlich ungetestet. Ich halte es auch für möglich, dass es da noch andere Lücken gibt.

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Martin Huber »

JulianZI wrote:Well, it seems to work with a green screen, but with white it is not so effective:
It's a sad fact of image processing, that there is no single tool to create perfect transparencies. But as you said: It works quite good with green screen images.
JulianZI wrote:Original
1.jpg
With color Background
2.jpg
The problem (imo it is a feature and can be useful!) is, that (as written before) the whole image and all colors are changed.

So if I remove the transparency with the brush I get a much different image:
3.jpg
Yes, I can get around that with a duplicated image on top …
You don't have to duplicate the image on top. Instead you could either create a mask before applying Color To Transparency or - in my option the better way - use it as adjustment layer. This way you can edit the mask later.
JulianZI wrote:but my point is, that this tool is useful, but not for what it is intended for.
It works good for its intended purpose. It was mainly intended to replace the need for plug-ins for removing uniform colored background (Kill White and so on). And now you can even use it for green screen images.
JulianZI wrote:For croma key or to remove white sky it would be better to improve the "Auto Transparency" feature to apply a variable transparency depending on the the tolerance.

Right now I am getting a result with very hard borders instead of transparent borders. Maybe a checkbox to activate this mode can be placed on the auto transparency tool. Of course the magic wand would need that, too.
This will probably create hard edges. But you can have this already now. Just create a mask with the Automask and then use Color To Transparency.

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by JulianZI »

Hi Martin,

Sorry, I have totally overlooked the various options in the Color to Transparency Tool and yes, it is very powerful.

My idea for the magic wand was: The intensity of the mask (or transparency) should vary with the distance of the image color to the selected color within the tolerance (say I select 10%, 10% difference makes the mask= 0, 0% difference mask = 255). I would also find it very intuitive and optional, just requires a checkbox i.e. "Dynamic".

The advantage over using a mask and the color transparency is, that the selection (or transparency) can be applied in multiple steps. So I can click on various areas of the background and subsequently apply the mask or transparency. (I could create an auto mask this way, but the color tool will only use one color!)

Don't get me wrong, the Color to Transparency is a great tool. But the mentioned little addition to the magic wand would take that tool to the next level and solve a problem I very frequently had with it (hard edges when cutting out Portaits). And it is intuitive since it is very clear what it does.

Anmerkung: Ich habe gerade die Aufgabe mit Bleistift auf dunkelbraunem Papier Handgeschriebes aufzubereiten. Das "Farbe nach Transparenz" Werkzeug funktioniert hiefür besser als alle Tools die ich bislang ausprobiert habe. Ein grosse Kompliment and die Entwickler für diese Funktion!
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by ellhel »

Hallo,

mir ist aufgefallen, das der Aktionen-Dialog (im Ausführungsmodus) immer in sein Stammverzeichnis zurückkehrt, nachdem man mal kurz einem anderen Tab aktiviert hatte.
Könnte man das nicht so machen, das sich der Aktionen-Dialog den zuletzt geöffneten Ordner "merkt". Eventuell optional einstellbar.

Info: Ich habe recht viele Aktionen im Einsatz, und ohne eine aufgeräumte Ordnerstruktur würde ich mich da nicht zurechtfinden. Und da der Ausführungsmodus den Zugriff auf die Aktionen ja effektiver gestalten soll, halte ich das "Rücksprung-"Verhalten für etwas unpassend.

Grüße
Helmut
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by ellhel »

Hallo,

wenn man mehrere Ebenen markiert und diese mit dem Befehl "auf eine Ebene reduzieren" zusammenfasst,
hat die neue Ebene keinen Namen. Aus diesem Grund kann man die Ebene dann nicht Kontextmenü des Ebenenwerkzeugs auswählen.
Könnte PL da nicht einen automatischen Namen generieren ( z.B.: "Reduziert_01" usw....).

LG
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Herbert123 »

There seems to be a show-stopping bug with drawing in Photoline.
Please look at this example:
Untitled.jpg
When I draw at 50% or less the lines become frazzled and ugly. Even when I work at 100% the line looks not as smooth as it should be compared to the same line drawn at 200% zoom.

It makes it impossible to draw in Photoline. This happens both with lines drawn with my Wacom tablet and my mouse. No other image editor or painting package I tested shows this behaviour (Manga Studio, Photoshop CS6, Krita, MyPaint).

Well, not entirely true: Windows Paint also exhibits this behaviour ;-)
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:When I draw at 50% or less the lines become frazzled and ugly. Even when I work at 100% the line looks not as smooth as it should be compared to the same line drawn at 200% zoom.
With a tablet, I can't reproduce the problem under OS X, even if I draw at 25 % magnification. Lines drawn at 50 % with the mouse look like in your example, but again 100 % seems to be ok (I guess that 50 % doesn't work because the mouse position is only available at screen resolution).

(I've used a round hard brush of size 1, pressure sensitivity set to "Only Eraser", i.e., off.)

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:When I draw at 50% or less the lines become frazzled and ugly. Even when I work at 100% the line looks not as smooth as it should be compared to the same line drawn at 200% zoom.
I did some quick tests here on Win7 using both the trackpad and a Wacom tablet and I can't reproduce what you showed. At 50% magnification, some of the small variations in curve smoothness look more obvious as would be expected when zoomed out, but nowhere near as bad as the example you posted.

I have the following set in the PL options:
line opt.png
Also, in the Wacom Tablet Properties utility, on its "Mapping" tab, I've disabled "Use Windows Ink".
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Herbert123 »

I also tried drawing freehand curves (aside from bitmap lines), and the result is the same. The vector settings I set to 10 and 0/1 - more than 1 for the curve, and it would introduce sharp corners in my round curves. I worked at A4, 300ppi, and tested with several zoom levels.

Thinking it might be the wacom set to full width mapping spanning three screens, I mapped to one screen only, and although it is ever so slightly less crooked looking, I feel this is due to the better stability of my drawing on just one mapped screen (thereby increasing the wacom resolution by almost three times).

I also did some more testing in Photoshop CS6, Krita, and Manga Studio (Clip Studio - I have the Japanese version), and both in Photoshop and Krita it is hard to draw a nice smooth line, but only in Photoline does it produce unusable frazzles when drawing at a lower zoom level.

Manga Studio (Clip Studio) produces absolutely jaggy-free smooth lines, no matter the zoom level - the best drawing experience I have ever had on a Wacom. Light years ahead of any of the others I tried. But then, that is to be expected from software focusing on the drawing experience for the most part - I do not expect similar performance in Photoline, but smooth lines without artifacts should be possible when zoomed out (or even on 100%) on an A4 page.

Btw, I draw on an older Intuos 1 series, which does have less resolution than the newer ones.
I have no "Windows Ink" setting available in the Wacom mapping preferences.

My system:
Win7 64- i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb, ATI 7970 3gb, EVGA 590 3GB (for CUDA), Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820. Screens: 2 x Samsung s27a850ds 2560x1440, HP 1920x1200 in portrait mode

Also, I have been testing the new "Lazy Nezumi Pro" for better strokes - that is when I really started noticing these frazzles. But even with that disabled, and drawing with the mouse I get those artifacts in my lines.
http://lazynezumi.com/
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:Btw, I draw on an older Intuos 1 series, which does have less resolution than the newer ones.
Although I'm using an Intuos4, I don't think it's the Wacom tablet, since you're noticing the effect when drawing with a mouse and I'm not noticing it when drawing with the trackpad.

Sorry, I'm out of ideas except that after looking at your image again, it might have something to do with screen resolution (or display drivers). But that's just grasping at straws....
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Herbert123 »

I installed the demo version of ArtRage, and the same thing happens there as well when drawing on a A4 300ppi canvas zoomed out. I also installed the latest drivers (for intuos 1) once again, but to no avail.

Strange thing is, in Clip Studio (Manga Studio) the lines are almost scarily smooth, even compared to Photoshop and Krita. The devs behind Clip Studio must be using some crazy fast post-processing drawing algorithm code.

It might indeed have something to do with the resolution of the screen(s) - I am unsure how many people here use a high 2560*1440 screen. I'd be interested in finding out if Mac users (and Windows users) working on a retina screen experience similar issues.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by Hoogo »

Herbert123 wrote:The vector settings I set to 10 and 0/1 - more than 1 for the curve, and it would introduce sharp corners in my round curves.
Sounds odd to me.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b3

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:I installed the demo version of ArtRage, and the same thing happens there as well when drawing on a A4 300ppi canvas zoomed out. I also installed the latest drivers (for intuos 1) once again, but to no avail.
Starts to sound like a resolution issue to me, then. What's the drawing resolution of your tablet, compared to the combined screen resolution? If I use the touch function of my tablet, my curves look worse than yours.
Herbert123 wrote:Strange thing is, in Clip Studio (Manga Studio) the lines are almost scarily smooth, even compared to Photoshop and Krita. The devs behind Clip Studio must be using some crazy fast post-processing drawing algorithm code.
Probably just something similar to the vector line smoothing in PL. (Btw., if you set smoothing to 0 in the preferences, you can adjust the smoothing values afterwards, via Layout -> Vector -> Optimize Vector Layer …) It's really a question of smooth curves vs. recognition of fine details (and of responsiveness – if you want to smooth a curve, you have to intercept a few positions before you can try to figure what the user wanted to draw). If I draw with the mouse at 100 %, I get very smooth curves if the mouse moves fast, and slightly jaggy curves if I draw slowly (i.e. if there's a lot of detailed movement information coming in, but only at screen resolution).

Maybe it's worth upgrading your tablet? Current Intuos Pro tablets have a resolution of 5000 lpi, Intuos 2 only had half the resolution, and I don't have any information about Intuos 1.

Cheers

Burkhard.