Neue Testversion 18.40b6

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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by Herbert123 »

Gerhard Huber wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:I am revisiting an old request of mine...
You should show your brush settings in PhotoLine, too. So I can show you, what you are doing wrong.

Gerhard
Here they are:
Untitled.jpg
And to demonstrate this also happens on my Windows 7 Asus epe121 tablet at a screen resolution of 1366x768 (which has a Wacom digitizer with pen built-in) drawing on a A4@300ppi :
tablettest.jpg
This was hand drawn on a completely different machine - still the same result, and with those brush settings. It does not happen in other software.
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bkh
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:I am revisiting an old request of mine: smooth strokes. Currently, drawing with a tablet in Photoline is not an option, because the strokes look very jagged and wobbly. Even when I set my wacom mapped to one 2560x1440px screen only, and zoom in to 100%, the strokes still look quite bad. And it does not matter whether I draw with the mouse or tablet. The lines are unusable.
I can sort of reproduce the problem when drawing very slowly in PL (lines do not look that bad here, but I think we already figured that OS X has higher resolution mouse coordinates). Quick movements don't produce the effect here. If one tries the same using Vector Drawing with no optimisation, then one can easily see that the curve which has been drawn slowly has just too many control points – and thus shows wiggles.
Herbert123 wrote: After testing many other applications with drawing capabilities, I have come to the conclusion that. except for Paint on Windows (and Photoline), other drawing code implements some kind of stroke interpolation to prevent these jaggies and wobbles.
Very likely. Have you tried the freehand vector drawing tool for comparison? For that tool, you can set line smoothing in the preferences (under Working -> Vector) – setting both values to 1 results in smooth (vector) curves here. Maybe the same (or similar) optimisation settings could be used for brushes as well …

Cheers

Burkhard.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:I am revisiting an old request of mine: smooth strokes. Currently, drawing with a tablet in Photoline is not an option, because the strokes look very jagged and wobbly. Even when I set my wacom mapped to one 2560x1440px screen only, and zoom in to 100%, the strokes still look quite bad. And it does not matter whether I draw with the mouse or tablet. The lines are unusable.
I can sort of reproduce the problem when drawing very slowly in PL (lines do not look that bad here, but I think we already figured that OS X has higher resolution mouse coordinates). Quick movements don't produce the effect here. If one tries the same using Vector Drawing with no optimisation, then one can easily see that the curve which has been drawn slowly has just too many control points – and thus shows wiggles.
Herbert123 wrote: After testing many other applications with drawing capabilities, I have come to the conclusion that. except for Paint on Windows (and Photoline), other drawing code implements some kind of stroke interpolation to prevent these jaggies and wobbles.
Very likely. Have you tried the freehand vector drawing tool for comparison? For that tool, you can set line smoothing in the preferences (under Working -> Vector) – setting both values to 1 results in smooth (vector) curves here. Maybe the same (or similar) optimisation settings could be used for brushes as well …

Cheers

Burkhard.
Thanks Burkhard - yes, drawing with the vector tools with a curve optimization of 1 works quite well, but even then, when I draw at a zoom level of 30% or less the wobbles appear. WIth a setting of 2 or more the line starts changing when I draw tight corners - which does not work either. Besides, Photoline does not offer a brush system for vectors, so it is not really a solution, unfortunately.

I believe this to be quite a complex topic. Merely implementing a direct mouse to canvas drawing method does not suffice for a drawing tool anymore, with resolutions sky-rocketing these last past few years. That is why even open source software like Gimp and Krita have added BOTH interpolation methods and smooth stroke options.

Thus there are two sides to this coin:
1) a general interpolation method during drawing to remove the wobblies and jaggies
2) an additional smooth stroke option to help artists with more stable and smooth looking lines. "Camera shake reduction" ;-)

The Gimp code for the second thing (smooth stroke) can be found here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ml&act=url
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by photoken »

As I said in reply to your original thread about this, I'm not noticing anything like what you've shown. Here's my result using your brush settings, page size and resolution on my Win7 x64 machine with PL 18.40b6 x64:
drawing.png
I didn't bother labeling the magnifications, since the lines look exactly the same drawn at all zoom factors. This was drawn using the touchpad -- not even a mouse or graphics tablet.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:As I said in reply to your original thread about this, I'm not noticing anything like what you've shown. Here's my result using your brush settings, page size and resolution on my Win7 x64 machine with PL 18.40b6 x64:
drawing.png
I didn't bother labeling the magnifications, since the lines look exactly the same drawn at all zoom factors. This was drawn using the touchpad -- not even a mouse or graphics tablet.
Did you draw on A4@300ppi for your test? And why is it then that I am experiencing the same problem on two separate machines with widely varying screen resolutions (2560x1440<->1366x768)? Why is it that none of the other drawing applications show similar results while drawing?

And in your lines I can also see the wobbles - though that touchpad may be sending more samples per second.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:The Gimp code for the second thing (smooth stroke) can be found here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ml&act=url
I think it's better not to send links to Gimp code – PL can't use it because of the Gimp copyright, and I wouldn't want people to blame PL for stealing Gimp code.
Herbert123 wrote:And in your lines I can also see the wobbles - though that touchpad may be sending more samples per second.

I guess the touchpad sends fewer samples, and thus forces PL to interpolate. (You can actually disable this kind of interpolation, by unchecking Preferences -> Working -> Brush -> Connect Brush Positions – then each dot represents one sample from the input device.)

Cheers

Burkhard.
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by photoken »

OK, now I can reproduce the problem. It is a combination of drawing speed and zoom factor. I switched to my Wacom tablet for more control over the drawing speed and got this result:
line wobbles.png
From top to bottom, the zoom factors are 10%, 20%, 50% and 100%. From left to right on each line, the drawing speed varied from slow to fast.

You're right -- the jagged, "wobbly" lines at slow drawing speeds done when zoomed out are unacceptable.

(I guess I didn't notice the problem when using the touchpad because my thumb was moving relatively fast....)
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:The Gimp code for the second thing (smooth stroke) can be found here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ml&act=url
I think it's better not to send links to Gimp code – PL can't use it because of the Gimp copyright, and I wouldn't want people to blame PL for stealing Gimp code.
Herbert123 wrote:And in your lines I can also see the wobbles - though that touchpad may be sending more samples per second.

I guess the touchpad sends fewer samples, and thus forces PL to interpolate. (You can actually disable this kind of interpolation, by unchecking Preferences -> Working -> Brush -> Connect Brush Positions – then each dot represents one sample from the input device.)

Cheers

Burkhard.
I wasn't suggesting to copy the code, but perhaps get some inspiration for a solution. I tried disabling that preference setting, and it resulted in stippled lines! Interesting for certain applications, though not for regular drawing.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:I wasn't suggesting to copy the code, but perhaps get some inspiration for a solution.
Seems you are not familiar with GPL. You are not allowed to do that and use the results commercially.
Herbert123 wrote: I tried disabling that preference setting, and it resulted in stippled lines! Interesting for certain applications, though not for regular drawing.
Of course. As I said, this is useful in understanding what the actual device input is.

Cheers

Burkhard.
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OldRadioGuy
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by OldRadioGuy »

Help File Corrections

Spelling error in 3.9 Dockable Dialogs:

"adges" should be changed to "edges"
PL-1-Spelling.jpg
Grammar error in 3.10 Multi-Touch Support on Mac OS-X:

"is supporting" should be changed to "supports"
PL-2-Grammar.jpg
When talking or writing about something true now or continuously into the future, the correct verb form used by native English speakers is the simple present tense -- in this case -- "supports."

While use of the participle does communicate the idea, it sounds mechanical, suggesting translation by computer software. I suspect there are other instances in the English translation of the Help file where "is _____ing" is used but should be replaced by "______s."

Bob
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3D body mixes up when used with layers

Post by evren »

I prepare a file to reproduce easily. It's on link below.
http://evrencomert.com/3D.pld
Just need to convert the top layer to 3D body.

And another point is, the sides (depth) always colored in gray instead the color of the edges of image. I tried to produce like it shows on user guide but it's not getting color from image.

Regards
Last edited by evren on Sun 09 Feb 2014 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by Herbert123 »

Something very odd going on in this file: open the attached file in Photoline, and scale down the group. Notice how the large letters start deforming, and the vectors are warped more and more as you scale the group down.

That should not happen, I think? The vectors should remain unchanged when scaling down.

*edit* This is caused by the pixel alignment, I just discovered.
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Re: 3D body mixes up when used with layers

Post by bkh »

evren wrote:I prepare a file to reproduce easily. It's on link below.
http://evrencomert.com/3D.pld
Just need to convert the top layer to 3D body.
Yes, the image is shifted to the right and the overlapping part re-appears on the left. Very strange …
evren wrote:And another point is, the sides (depth) always colored in gray instead the color of the edges of image. I tried to produce like it shows on user guide but it's not getting color from image.
This is just as documented: "With images the image defines the front and back, the sides are always gray." (However I agree that continuing the edge colour would be a useful alternative.)

I suppose that 3D bodies are mainly intended to be used with vector graphics and text, though.

Cheers

Burkhard.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:*edit* This is caused by the pixel alignment, I just discovered.
Not sure. To me, it looks like the control points are still in the right places, but the actual curves are drawn elsehwere. Might be a rounding error. The situation improves if you fix the large letter layers before scaling the group down (avoiding the combination of scaling up and down).

Cheers

Burkhard.
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Gerhard Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b6

Post by Gerhard Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:Something very odd going on in this file: open the attached file in Photoline, and scale down the group. Notice how the large letters start deforming, and the vectors are warped more and more as you scale the group down.
That should not happen, I think? The vectors should remain unchanged when scaling down.
I can't see a problem here. Do you scale the layer with the layer move tool or the scale function (dialog)?
Herbert123 wrote:*edit* This is caused by the pixel alignment, I just discovered.
what does this mean?


Gerhard