Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Also strange: when the user switches to pixel mode (ctrl-1), the guides do not snap to pixels, and it is still possible to position a guide to a decimal number. Ideally the user would expect when he/she switches to pixel mode that the guides snap to pixels...
If you need alignment to pixel borders, why don't you use the grid with 1 px distance? Then both layers and grid lines snap to pixel borders (or to pixel centres, if you set the offset to 0.5 px. I don't think it's wise to mix the functionality of grid and pixel mode.

Btw., a grid can also be very helpful in quickly setting up guide lines with equal distances.

I only wish that grid settings would be part of a document (maybe added to the Guides dialogue), not a global setting.

Cheers

Burkhard.
Setting the grid to 1px actually works quite well. But that issue with the left and top pixels that lie outside the snapped rectangle rears its ugly head again... And working zoomed out still allows elements to be positioned fractionally, which means the pixel grid only works when we zoom in.

I tried the grid object, but again several issues:
- elements do not snap to that grid. So we are forced to convert it to a vector object (split vector object);
- once converted, snapping still does not work unless all the lines of the grid are made available on the same layer stack level as the elements you wish to snap to that grid. We cannot group the lines together, because snapping stops functioning (or rather, elements will then snap to the group). This makes it almost impossible to work with for more complicated grids - having hundreds of objects in the root of the layer stack!

So it is again a very weak work-around, that does not solve the guides problem in Photoline.

To me, and any other designer that works on a daily basis with (print) layouts and web/app mockups, these ought to be added to Photoline:

- layer based guides to control different sets of guides and grids (these layers could be organized in a modernized guide manager, btw);

- a grid creator for guides that matches the needs of any layout designer (like GuideGuide and Grid Calculator);

- guides that behave like regular objects, and can be multiple selected and translated and controlled with the regular tools.

- an easy way to avoid fractionally positioned guides for web and app layout work.

- a much improved guide manager. Perhaps all this functionality can be combined in a modernized guide manager - I would not mind having "layers for guides" added to the guide manager. Actually makes more sense, I think, and is more usable than littering the guides throughout the layer stack. I guess that is why layout applications always use a page template system to take care of guides in a more organized manner.

Until these are implemented, (semi-)complex layout work, both for digital and print, is tough going in Photoline. And I speak from experience: I have been using Photoline for layout work in the past year, and it often proves to be a very frustrating experience due to the very basic guide implementation in Photoline. It really is very bare-bones indeed. A shame, because I do not think an improved guide system and manager would take too much development time.

Crossing my fingers. It would be a boon to every Photoline user. Just imagine as a photographer to be able to add a two-thirds grid, or a golden rectangle grid. Or a quick modular grid for easy thumbnail placement. Now extend those possibilities to all other users that need some form of simple or complex grid management -everyone wins. And Photoline becomes a much more viable product for layout work.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:It would be a boon to every Photoline user.
I don't see that. As someone who needs a powerful image editor (which PL is), I've hardly ever used Guides. For simple document layouts like greeting cards, business cards, posters, brochures, etc., the capabilities of PL seem sufficient.

Of course, someone doing hellishly complicated layouts will be dissatisfied, but I question whether that person will be using an image editor instead of a dedicated layout program for that kind of work.
Herbert123 wrote: - a grid creator for guides that matches the needs of any layout designer (like GuideGuide and Grid Calculator);.
This brings up an interesting point: From what I've seen on the Web sites for those utilities, it looks like they take advantage of Photoshop's scripting feature to perform their tasks. If PL opened up its object model to scripting, then those features you desire could be accommodated. Even though I prefer working with C# in the .Net framework, I realize that Javascript would be better for cross-platform compatibility reasons.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:It would be a boon to every Photoline user.
I don't see that. As someone who needs a powerful image editor (which PL is), I've hardly ever used Guides. For simple document layouts like greeting cards, business cards, posters, brochures, etc., the capabilities of PL seem sufficient.

Of course, someone doing hellishly complicated layouts will be dissatisfied, but I question whether that person will be using an image editor instead of a dedicated layout program for that kind of work.
The point is that even relatively simple layout grids are difficult to accomplish in Photoline. Even a 5 by 3 grid with a preset gutter and different top and bottom margins is a chore to set up in Photoline - something that should take up a minute, takes a long time, and manual work.
photoken wrote:
This brings up an interesting point: From what I've seen on the Web sites for those utilities, it looks like they take advantage of Photoshop's scripting feature to perform their tasks. If PL opened up its object model to scripting, then those features you desire could be accommodated. Even though I prefer working with C# in the .Net framework, I realize that Javascript would be better for cross-platform compatibility reasons.
Well, that is what I was saying: the lack of a scripting interface is preventing our community to open up Photoline with custom functionality. Which is why I was saying earlier in this thread that I would have scripted a grid script a long time ago IF it were possible. Actions, btw, do not respond to guides. Not having a scripting interface is limiting the potential of the Photoline community.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:The point is that even relatively simple layout grids are difficult to accomplish in Photoline. Even a 5 by 3 grid with a preset gutter and different top and bottom margins is a chore to set up in Photoline - something that should take up a minute, takes a long time, and manual work.
I've only looked at the Guides panel briefly, but the entry fields do take mathematical expressions. So, for a gutter, entering
(w/2)-0.25in Vertical
(w/2)+0.25in Vertical
will create a 0.5in gutter centered and running vertically.

Similar formulas will give you your top and bottom margins.

I just did a test and, unfortunately, PL does not save the Guides presets as formulas but rather as the converted pixel values for the active image. This means the saved preset cannot be used for images with different dimensions. I'll file a Feature Request for that.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
User avatar
Hoogo
Betatester
Posts: 3914
Joined: Sun 03 Jul 2005 13:35
Location: Mülheim/Ruhr

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Hoogo »

Well, I still don't see the problem with the grid. Aligning to a vector shape "grid" works fine here, as long as the vector and the grid are in the same group.

So I would place the grid on top of the stack, create the new shapes also on top level and then move them into their destination group.
----------------
Herr Doktor, ich bin mir ganz sicher, ich habe Atom! /Doctor, doctor, I'm sure, I've got atoms!
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:Strange behaviour: when I lock a group, I expect all the child elements of that group to be locked as well.
I don't think the current behavior is strange. Actually I like it better than your proposal.
Herbert123 wrote:Also, it is very difficult to rename a layer - especially with a wacom tablet. Sometimes I have to try three or four times before PL "gets it" that I wish to rename a layer.
Renaming using a tablet is really a bit annoying. I will try to enhance that.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:One more bug, guide related:

- add four guides: two horizontal, and two vertical ones to create a rectangle.
- switch to pixel mode (ctrl-1).
- open the guide manager, and change each guide position to a round pixel value (no decimals)
- draw a rectangle, and snap all four sides to the guides. Set a stroke of 1px and a clear outline colour.
- turn on alignment (pixel snapping) in the layer panel

Now notice how the top and left edge DO NOT align within the guides. The 1px edge lies outside the guides:

(...)
I don't see the bug here. The path is aligned to the pixels, your guides are not, so the two have different positions.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:Another bug (apologies, I am working on a couple of layouts for a client, so I am discovering more now):

- select an element.
- activate "centered" in the layer tool properties (Q).
- open the layer properties panel, and change the scaling by entering a smaller or bigger number.

Result: the layer does not scale from the center out. It scales from the left top.
This isn't a bug. The Tool Settings are the options for the active tool and don't have a global effect. But there should probably be a way to define a reference point, I currently just don't know what it should look like.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:Fatal crashing bug!

Documents with multiple pages will crash Photoline when:

1) open the attached file in Photoline
2) open the pages panel.
3) select (click) page 1

3) now place the mouse cursor over the "Page 2" title. Click and drag a little bit over the "Page 2" label - crash!
I can't reproduce this bug.

But I do get a crash, if I select page 1 and drag it without actually changing its location (so that page 1 stays page 1). I fixed that.
photoken wrote:It doesn't happen all the time, but if I keep dragging pages to re-order them, eventually PL will crash.
Aside from the bug above I don't have crashes, if I reorder pages. Do you have a test PLD with reproducible crashes?

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Bug: "Revert to Saved" clears pages panel

Post by Martin Huber »

photoken wrote:Win7 x64 SP1
PL 18.40b19 x64

Steps to reproduce:
  • Open a multi-page PLD document.
  • Show the Pages panel.
  • Choose File...Revert to Saved.
Result:
The Pages panel is cleared -- no pages are shown.
I will fix that.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Martin Huber »

Andreas87 wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Also, it is very difficult to rename a layer - especially with a wacom tablet. Sometimes I have to try three or four times before PL "gets it" that I wish to rename a layer. The old layer dialog is gone, and there is no layer name entry in the layer pane. In Windows F2 is the standard shortcut to rename things - it would be extremely handy to allow for that.
It's not only for Wacom but for regular mouse as well. Main issue I see is the time between clicking and activating the edit field. It takes too long so that you think that you did not hit the right place and click again (and again and again and again ...). My feeling tells me that the program reaction is almost 1 second and that's much too long.
After the click PhotoLine is waiting for a double-click. On Mac OS the double-click time is 0.5 s.
But you can double-click in the first place. This way you are avoiding the wait-time.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:I think it could be "easily" solved if the line style editor would allow us to choose strokes that lie inside, outside, or in the center of a curve.

That is how it works in other vector drawing applications. I always wondered why Photoline does not offer that option.
Because done right that is very complex.
Burkhard already mentioned an easy way to simulate it by clipping the stroke by the vector path. PhotoLine could do that internally, but sadly that doesn't work correctly with dashed strokes.

Martin
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by photoken »

Martin Huber wrote:But I do get a crash, if I select page 1 and drag it without actually changing its location (so that page 1 stays page 1). I fixed that.
photoken wrote:It doesn't happen all the time, but if I keep dragging pages to re-order them, eventually PL will crash.
Aside from the bug above I don't have crashes, if I reorder pages. Do you have a test PLD with reproducible crashes?
Ah, now I see it -- you're quite right. I can drag and re-order pages without crashing, but I must have inadvertently done that type of page1 drag to cause the crash.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
bkh
Betatester
Posts: 3661
Joined: Thu 26 Nov 2009 22:59

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by bkh »

Martin Huber wrote:
Andreas87 wrote:Main issue I see is the time between clicking and activating the edit field. It takes too long so that you think that you did not hit the right place and click again (and again and again and again ...). My feeling tells me that the program reaction is almost 1 second and that's much too long.
After the click PhotoLine is waiting for a double-click. On Mac OS the double-click time is 0.5 s.
But you can double-click in the first place. This way you are avoiding the wait-time.
Just wondering: why doesn't editing mode start with just a single click, without the delay? Using my Wacom tablet, I also have the impression that sometimes a click doesn't work, possibly because I make (or don't make) a small pen movement afterwards. Using the mouse, I think I have to wait for the double click time set in the System Preferences unless I move the mouse cursor before (a slight mouse movement starts editing immediately – this is easy to observe if you set the double click speed to maximum). Of course, this is nothing specific to the Layer name field but probably applies to every text input field.

Cheers

Burkhard.
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 18.40b19

Post by Herbert123 »

Martin Huber wrote:
Andreas87 wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Also, it is very difficult to rename a layer - especially with a wacom tablet. Sometimes I have to try three or four times before PL "gets it" that I wish to rename a layer. The old layer dialog is gone, and there is no layer name entry in the layer pane. In Windows F2 is the standard shortcut to rename things - it would be extremely handy to allow for that.
It's not only for Wacom but for regular mouse as well. Main issue I see is the time between clicking and activating the edit field. It takes too long so that you think that you did not hit the right place and click again (and again and again and again ...). My feeling tells me that the program reaction is almost 1 second and that's much too long.
After the click PhotoLine is waiting for a double-click. On Mac OS the double-click time is 0.5 s.
But you can double-click in the first place. This way you are avoiding the wait-time.

Martin
Quickly double-clicking does not work in many instances - it becomes editable for a split second, and then un-editable again.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait