Neue Testversion 18.90b1

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Gerhard Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1, Text Layer copy problem

Post by Gerhard Huber »

Michael Roek-Ramirez wrote:When trying to copy a text layer, PL stops working/breaks down.
Condition:
There is an image layer which is related to the text layer as "wrap text around image"
Running under Ubuntu WINE
ich habe das unter Windows und Ubuntu getestet und kein Problem festgestellt.
Hast du ein Testdokument dazu?
Wie kopierst du? Ganzen Text mit Ebenenwerkzeug aktiv oder nur Teile mit dem Textwerkzeug aktiv?
Wann gibt es das Problem, wenn du Strg-C drückst oder kopierst du über das Menü oder Kontextmenü?

Gerhard
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: Kerning, baseline offset, and similar properties are things we use for exceptions, not for overall text settings.
No, I also use them, especially the kerning, for overall settings when creating text -- greatly expanding the kerning, for example, to create eye-catching blocks of text, or reducing the kerning to create nice, tightly formatted text blocks.
Herbert123 wrote:The settings under the "B" tab should be reset back to default normal values after using them for new text boxes.
I disagree. When I'm using the same font in multiple places in a document, I'll want to have the kerning, etc., be the same for each text box.

The values on the "B" tab are easily changed by holding the Ctrl key while dragging the left mouse button.
Last edited by photoken on Tue 30 Sep 2014 09:20, edited 1 time in total.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: B) I have to set a colour to the vector outline, because applying no colour makes the outline invisible.

It would be a nice workflow enhancer if the outlines of invisible vector objects would be visible with a thin black outline when the edit vector points tool is activated for an invisible vector layer. Not only for this type of work. Currently the control points and handles ARE visible, but the invisible outline makes it rather difficult to work with it.
You're joking, right? "Invisible" means...ummm...wait a minute...it's...it's...not visible! Whew!
:lol:
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by Juan »

Hi all,

Just a general question here, is there any technical reason for not scale selected layers using the Layer panel?

Cheers
Juan
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: B) I have to set a colour to the vector outline, because applying no colour makes the outline invisible.

It would be a nice workflow enhancer if the outlines of invisible vector objects would be visible with a thin black outline when the edit vector points tool is activated for an invisible vector layer. Not only for this type of work. Currently the control points and handles ARE visible, but the invisible outline makes it rather difficult to work with it.
You're joking, right? "Invisible" means...ummm...wait a minute...it's...it's...not visible! Whew!
:lol:
No, this is not as ridiculous as it might sound. It's a user experience design issue.

Both Illustrator and Freehand retain a simple blue non-antialiased outline even when the stroke is turned off, in order to be able to see how the path runs. Invisible paths are used for text on a path as well, for example. And when a vector layer is converted to a vector mask Photoline already draws a red thin outline even when the path was initially invisible - if not it would be unnecessarily difficult to edit the clip path.

InDesign ALSO adheres to this principle, by the way.

Anyway, when all these industry standard applications work this way, I would say there is a very good user experience reason behind that decision. When editing visually hidden paths the user still wants to be able to see the actual path - at least, I do.

Of course, I can always hide those vector layers after editing them in Photoline. It just takes more work. Currently I set the ouline to a blue one and turn off anti-aliasing for that particular layer as well - which gives me that outline.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: Kerning, baseline offset, and similar properties are things we use for exceptions, not for overall text settings.
No, I also use them, especially the kerning, for overall settings when creating text -- greatly expanding the kerning, for example, to create eye-catching blocks of text, or reducing the kerning to create nice, tightly formatted text blocks.
Herbert123 wrote:The settings under the "B" tab should be reset back to default normal values after using them for new text boxes.
I disagree. When I'm using the same font in multiple places in a document, I'll want to have the kerning, etc., be the same for each text box.

The values on the "B" tab are easily changed by holding the Ctrl key while dragging the left mouse button.
The real issue here is that Photoline offers no tracking option: tracking increases or decreases the overall space between all characters and words. Kerning is completely different, and ideally the designer should avoid it for those things, because kerning is NOT the same as letter spacing or tracking. Kerning is used by a typographer to decide what the distance between a specific letter pair should be for optimum legibility. Kerning is generally used in graphic design and layout to mitigate kerning problems after scaling up text for a large heading, for example, because most fonts' kerning tables are created for body text use, not for very large headings.

Currently Photoline remembers the kerning setting for the last selected instance of text and applies it indiscriminately for any new text box. When I happen to have clicked between two letters with custom kerning set, and I create a new text box afterwards, that kerning value is applied to all the new text I copy or type - forcing me to reset that value to zero. And forcing me to select all the text first as well.

It just makes no sense from a typography point of view, or a graphic designer's point of view, because kerning is NOT supposed to be abused for overall text spacing: only for specific letter pairs. Tracking is used for that.

And the same holds (mostly) true for baseline shift.

Look, I can sort of understand when this happens within the same document (although it really should not), but at least give me an option in the preferences to turn this behaviour off. But what I do not understand is why the kerning setting is remembered even after creating a NEW document!!! I want reasonable default text settings to begin with when starting a NEW document - not the old settings taken from an old one. The text settings SHOULD be reset to smart defaults in that case.

Because otherwise there is a genuine risk the new document applies a singular custom kerning to ALL THE TEXT in my NEW layout, and I become paranoid about whether those settings are correct or not. It is way too finicky and prone to silly mistakes, because Photoline will keep the kerning setting depending on where I clicked last in a heading or text.

Worse, the kerning setting is saved in a paragraph style in Photoline. That is just plain wrong! Why would you want to save an overall kerning value in a paragraph style?! Again, this leads me to think that Photoline confuses KERNING and TRACKING. Kerning should NOT be abused for tracking, nor should it be saved in a paragraph style. Again, a custom kerning is used for EXCEPTIONS to the regular kerning table embedded in a font. TRACKING, however, IS something that should be saved in a character and paragraph style.

That is why you'll find no kerning option in either paragraph or character styles in InDesign, QuarkXpress, Illustrator, Freehand (called "range kerning" instead), Scribus, and any other graphic design/layout software: kerning is not tracking, and tracking is not kerning.

Only Photoline takes a different route, and confuses tracking and kerning.
Last edited by Herbert123 on Tue 30 Sep 2014 21:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:The settings under the "B" tab should be reset back to default normal values after using them for new text boxes.
I disagree. When I'm using the same font in multiple places in a document, I'll want to have the kerning, etc., be the same for each text box.

The values on the "B" tab are easily changed by holding the Ctrl key while dragging the left mouse button.
That is why paragraph and character styles were invented. You will find them in Photoline under the panels/text styles.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:
The real issue here is that Photoline offers no tracking option
True enough. Although PL's current method of using the "spacing" for both kerning and tracking is very useable, it would make sense to have separate kerning and tracking options, stored in the appropriate places.
Herbert123 wrote:
forcing me to reset that value to zero. And forcing me to select all the text first as well.
I could see having a "Reset" button for the tabs of the Text settings to make it easier to return all the values to "zero" with one click.

I still don't have a problem with having those values retained for newly created text boxes -- as often as not, that's what I need.
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:No, this is not as ridiculous as it might sound.

Yeah, I meant no disrespect by my joking comment, but it struck me as humorous to ask that an invisible object should be visible....
Herbert123 wrote:Both Illustrator and Freehand retain a simple blue non-antialiased outline even when the stroke is turned off, in order to be able to see how the path runs.
I like the way CorelDraw does it: a path with no color is shown as a thin, blue, dashed line, but only when the object is active (selected) and the Shape tool (Edit Vector Points, in PL) is used. Using that blue, dashed line prevents the invisible object from being confused with visible objects that might have a blue, hairline stroke.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1, Text Layer copy problem

Post by Michael Roek-Ramirez »

[quote="Gerhard Huber"]
ich habe das unter Windows und Ubuntu getestet und kein Problem festgestellt.
Hast du ein Testdokument dazu?
Wie kopierst du? Ganzen Text mit Ebenenwerkzeug aktiv oder nur Teile mit dem Textwerkzeug aktiv?
Wann gibt es das Problem, wenn du Strg-C drückst oder kopierst du über das Menü oder Kontextmenü?
Gerhard[/quote]

Testdatei anbei.
1. Gruppe öffnen
2. Text markieren im Ebenenwerkzeug
3. Ctrl-C oder Rechtsklock - Kopiere

Unhandled exception: page fault on read access to 0x00000000 in 32-bit code (0x00c633d4).
Register dump:
CS:0073 SS:007b DS:007b ES:007b FS:0033 GS:003b
EIP:00c633d4 ESP:00334020 EBP:003344a0 EFLAGS:00010202( R- -- I - - - )
EAX:000000d3 EBX:003344b0 ECX:0033403c EDX:000001ec
ESI:00000000 EDI:02bd5358
......


Gruss
Michael
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:No, this is not as ridiculous as it might sound.

Yeah, I meant no disrespect by my joking comment, but it struck me as humorous to ask that an invisible object should be visible....
Herbert123 wrote:Both Illustrator and Freehand retain a simple blue non-antialiased outline even when the stroke is turned off, in order to be able to see how the path runs.
I like the way CorelDraw does it: a path with no color is shown as a thin, blue, dashed line, but only when the object is active (selected) and the Shape tool (Edit Vector Points, in PL) is used. Using that blue, dashed line prevents the invisible object from being confused with visible objects that might have a blue, hairline stroke.
Ah, no harm done - the way CorelDraw behaves is almost identical to the other design applications (minus the dashed styling). So that would work equally well in Photoline.

I think my comments are more or less coming from my frustration as a web/graphic designer realizing that Photoline could become a great all-purpose design tool, if only some of the rough edges would be polished.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:I think my comments are more or less coming from my frustration as a web/graphic designer realizing that Photoline could become a great all-purpose design tool, if only some of the rough edges would be polished.
Actually, I sort of agree. I still would rather use dedicated programs to do what they do best, be it image editing or vector work or layout because I think that those apps will always be the most feature-rich for their specialized purpose. If PL ultimately can prove me wrong about that, then that would be OK, too.

It's my priorities that are different, however. I want PL to be first and foremost the most excellent image editor on the planet. To that end, there are any number of open feature requests regarding image editing that I'd like to see the development concentrated on.

It's only after PL surpasses Photoshop's functionality that I'd want the vector and layout functions enhanced. Until then, the more esoteric vector graphic features can be accommodated in PL by using dedicated vector programs like Illustrator or CorelDraw and incorporating their modifications through the External Programs option, or the Placeholder option. In other words, right now PL can leverage those dedicated applications very nicely.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1, Text Layer copy problem

Post by bkh »

Michael Roek-Ramirez wrote:Testdatei anbei.
1. Gruppe öffnen
2. Text markieren im Ebenenwerkzeug
3. Ctrl-C oder Rechtsklock - Kopiere
Den Absturz kann ich auch unter OS X/PL 64 bit reproduzieren. Wenn ich den Textumfluss um das Bild lösche, geht's.

L.G.

Burkhard.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1

Post by JulianZI »

photoken wrote:It's my priorities that are different, however. I want PL to be first and foremost the most excellent image editor on the planet. To that end, there are any number of open feature requests regarding image editing that I'd like to see the development concentrated on.
For me the photo editing capabilities of PhotoLine are perfectly fine - I use it mostly for retouching Images, remove objects and such. With its different color formats it can do practically any change to an image I can imagine.

But the major part of image editing, the 5-20 seconds retouch of an image before it goes to print, is done in a RAW program - simply because that is quicker and it works with the raw high definition data and does not require additional space on the drive (+ load and save time). PhotoLines RAW converter works rather well, but as long as the RAW is embedded and bloats the resulting file, it is of little interest to me.

Photoline has excellent layer capabilities and is a great tool to design greeting cards. It also can do advertising and I feel there is a lot of demand for such publications.
And for that it needs its vector and text tools.

You should see where PhotoLines market is, not what you feel you personally need. If you want Photoshop - get it. I am here with PL because I do not want Photoshop - I want the mix of vector and image tools PhotoLine has. The ability to blend vector elements with Image layers is very powerful - and if it is "only" to apply a mask. There are plenty of image editors, free and commercial, but I do not know a single which can do what PhotoLine can do. Although I agree, that there are a few loose ends which needs polishing, I would rather concentrate on whats already there and how it can be presented to user better. And in this respect, the report that an invisible line should be visible while in editing mode, makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b1, Text Layer copy problem

Post by Martin Huber »

Michael Roek-Ramirez wrote:Testdatei anbei.
1. Gruppe öffnen
2. Text markieren im Ebenenwerkzeug
3. Ctrl-C oder Rechtsklock - Kopiere

Unhandled exception: page fault on read access to 0x00000000 in 32-bit code (0x00c633d4).
So eine kleine Testdatei macht es immer leichter, ein Problem nachzuvollziehen :-)

Der Fehler sollte in der nächsten Version nicht mehr auftreten.

Martin