Neue Testversion 18.90b2

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Martin Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by Martin Huber »

bkh wrote:Ich habe hier ein Problem, vermutlich mit den dünnen Linien: ist die Liniendicke 0 und Linien- gleich Füllfarbe, dann wird das Vektorobjekt nicht mehr richtig gefüllt, und zwar nicht nur bei der Bildschirmanzeige (Pixel-Modus), sondern auch beim Export und beim verknüpften Kopieren – merkwürdigerweise tritt der Effekt nur auf, wenn der Hintergrund transparent ist (je transparenter, desto stärker):
(...)
Einen sehr merkwürdigen Effekt bekomme ich auch, wenn ich die Füllfarbe auf "Weiß" setze und dann die Transparenz der Randfarbe verringere – dann bleiben nur ein paar Pixel sichtbar, diese aber sehr deutlich.
Ja, da ist ein Fehler in der neuen Funktion für Haarlinien und der ist für die beiden Probleme verantwortlich. Ich werde das reparieren.

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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:And a guide creator for columns, rows, and grids.
Here's a sample Guide preset I created for a 3 column layout with 0.25in margins and gutters. You can use its formulas as a starting point for your own presets -- the formulas should be self-explanatory. (How's your math? :wink: )
3 column.zip
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by JulianZI »

- Hilfslinien: Speichern nun ggf. Formeln
Super Sache - damit kann man nun auch allgemeine Vorgaben machen wie 3% Beschnitt angeben.
Solche Voreinstellungen würden dann auch im Dialog "Neues Bild" Sinn machen.
w und h werden ausgewertet, d für dpi ist aber anscheinend 0. dpi wäre aber nützlich um auflösungsabhängige Linien zu erstellen.
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Martin Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by Martin Huber »

JulianZI wrote:w und h werden ausgewertet, d für dpi ist aber anscheinend 0. dpi wäre aber nützlich um auflösungsabhängige Linien zu erstellen.
Momentan werden Werte nur dann als Formel gespeichert, wenn w oder h vorkommen.
Ich habe es noch nicht ausprobiert, aber prinzipiell sollte es funktionieren, wenn du als Formel sowas wie "w * 0 + 1 cm" verwendest. Das sollte - unabhängig von der Dokumentauflösung - an der Position 1 cm eine Hilfslinie anlegen.

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by JulianZI »

Martin Huber wrote:
JulianZI wrote:w und h werden ausgewertet, d für dpi ist aber anscheinend 0. dpi wäre aber nützlich um auflösungsabhängige Linien zu erstellen.
Momentan werden Werte nur dann als Formel gespeichert, wenn w oder h vorkommen.
Ich habe es noch nicht ausprobiert, aber prinzipiell sollte es funktionieren, wenn du als Formel sowas wie "w * 0 + 1 cm" verwendest. Das sollte - unabhängig von der Dokumentauflösung - an der Position 1 cm eine Hilfslinie anlegen.
Super, dann können die Voreinstellungen nun für alle Seitengrössen funktionieren:

"1 cm Rand an allen Seiten":
w*0 + 1cm
w - 1cm
h*0 + 1cm
h - 1cm

Habs schon probiert, funktioniert perfekt.

Hier hätte ich noch 2 Formeln um das 16:9 Format anzuzeigen:
(h-w/16*9)/2
(h-w/16*9)/2+w/16*9

Das ist echt ein super upgrade für die Hilfslinien!
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by photoken »

Martin Huber wrote:Ich habe es noch nicht ausprobiert, aber prinzipiell sollte es funktionieren, wenn du als Formel sowas wie "w * 0 + 1 cm" verwendest. Das sollte - unabhängig von der Dokumentauflösung - an der Position 1 cm eine Hilfslinie anlegen.
Yes, for the 3 column guides preset I posted, I struggled over what I thought would be the simplest placement: 0.25in left margin. Simply specifying "0.25in" did not give consistent results on different images. I wound up using "w-w+0.25in", after much experimenting. I assume that there's some image resolution calculations going on in the background.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by Herbert123 »

The formulas for guides are a great addition. But the essential workflow issue remains: if we wanted to create an 18 or 24 column grid quickly, with multiple row divisions AND gutters between columns and rows, it may take hours to set it up properly. (One merely has to imagine 48 vertical guides - now imagine having to enter 48 guides by hand, AND entering all the formulas manually as well - a recipe for errors, and mind-numbingly dull work! Believe me, I talk from experience having it done a couple of times now in Photoline - I just do not bother anymore at this point.)

And even though it will then automatically adjust to the document size, even making a small change, such as adjusting the gutter space between columns, means we would have to redo 95% of all the guides manually once more.

Grids and a flexible guide system are so incredibly important in any (semi)serious design workflow - they are sorely missed in Photoline at this point. I really hope the brothers will add a kick-ass grid creator option. Currently we cannot even select multiple guides and move them in the view with the mouse. Worse, we cannot even select multiple guides in the guides panel and delete a bunch - one... by... one... by... one...

With this addition of formulaic guides, the guides panel is crying out even louder for a flexible column/row/gutters creating dialog. Even creating a simple thirds grid with gutters in both axes takes a couple of minutes - a task that should take no more than 10 seconds.

(And the option to have multiple guide sets with different colour options that can be individually turned off and on with one click. Preferably layer based. Sorry, last time I will mention it this month) ;-)

And although the formulaic guides are a great option, it is a bit odd to leave it up to the user to manually enter the formulas - a task ideally suited to automation (which is what computers are all about, is it not?).

But perhaps this addition was made to accommodate more changes to the guide system in the upcoming releases? Fingers crossed!


PS I was thinking: if guides in Photoline would behave more like regular (Vector) object do, we would have much more flexibility. Currently a guide seems to be a special entity that behaves quite different from other objects.
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:The formulas for guides are a great addition. But the essential workflow issue remains: if we wanted to create an 18 or 24 column grid quickly, with multiple row divisions AND gutters between columns and rows, it may take hours to set it up properly. (One merely has to imagine 48 vertical guides - now imagine having to enter 48 guides by hand, AND entering all the formulas manually as well - a recipe for errors, and mind-numbingly dull work!
How common is it for the general user base to need 24 (!) columns? With multiple row divisions? And row gutters?!? Even if needed, it would take nowhere near "hours" to set up -- once you know your columns will be
(w-margins)/24
your formulas for the individual guides are just a repetition of that; times the column number, plus the gutters.

I found it helped to use a simple text editor to enter the formulas, one formula per line. That made it easy to ensure accuracy and catch inconsistencies. Then it was a simple copy & paste of each formula into the PL Guides panel.

Having those formulas in the text editor also helped when changing the gutter width -- you can see where the gutter width is specified and it's a quick edit to enter the new values.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by JulianZI »

if we wanted to create an 18 or 24 column grid quickly, with multiple row divisions AND gutters between columns and rows,
I used the grid tool for this - you can specify the row and column count and it can be resized. The grid does not really work like guidelines, but it still helps to position elements.

Another feature I used is the Image catalog. If I have multiple small Images (i.e. icons) I can use the catalog to automatically create a document with all those Images in a defined row/column layout.

I think the guideline dialog is very nice, the only thing I would add is a dropdown (combobox) for the value edit to show some formula samples - otherwise only very few will really notice this powerful feature.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by ellhel »

Hallo,

es wäre praktisch, wenn man mehrere Hilfslinien-Presets kombinieren könnte. Zur Zeit werden beim anwenden eines weiterenHilfslinien-Presets die vorhandenen gnadenlos überschrieben.
Ein kleiner Radiobutton mit der Funktion "hinzufügen" wäre super.

LG
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by Andreas87 »

photoken wrote:
Andreas87 wrote:Das ist auch nicht mein Thema. Mir geht's um den Registry-Eintrag, der durch den Installer auf den zuletzt installierten (also Beta) Program-Pfad umgebogen wird. Und das muss ich jedesmal von Hand wieder zurückbiegen, damit die Datei-Assoziation wieder das Main Release started und nicht das Beta Release. Das Beta Release sollte nur gestartet werden, wenn ich das explizit möchte (z.B. zu Testzwecken).
My apologies if bing Translator does not do a very good job, but I still do not have problems with the current installation method. Here on Win7, the system file associations as well as associations within individual applications remain as set to the PL release version, and the PL beta is only launched when I manually start it.
Only one example of the Registry:

Code: Select all

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\PhotoLine.Document\shell\open\command]
 Before Installation:  "c:\...\PhotoLine\PhotoLine64.exe" "%1"
 After  Installation:  "c:\...\PhotoLine-Beta-18.90b2\PhotoLine64.exe" "%1"
This is valid for every Registry entry of Photoline, which includes the path to the PL executable. And due to this change in the Registry by the "pl" installer, after installing the beta release the opening of a ".pld" file starts the beta release and not the latest main release.

And this is the reason I want to have the "plo" version for betatesting.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:The formulas for guides are a great addition. But the essential workflow issue remains: if we wanted to create an 18 or 24 column grid quickly, with multiple row divisions AND gutters between columns and rows, it may take hours to set it up properly. (One merely has to imagine 48 vertical guides - now imagine having to enter 48 guides by hand, AND entering all the formulas manually as well - a recipe for errors, and mind-numbingly dull work!
How common is it for the general user base to need 24 (!) columns? With multiple row divisions? And row gutters?!? Even if needed, it would take nowhere near "hours" to set up -- once you know your columns will be
(w-margins)/24
your formulas for the individual guides are just a repetition of that; times the column number, plus the gutters.

I found it helped to use a simple text editor to enter the formulas, one formula per line. That made it easy to ensure accuracy and catch inconsistencies. Then it was a simple copy & paste of each formula into the PL Guides panel.

Having those formulas in the text editor also helped when changing the gutter width -- you can see where the gutter width is specified and it's a quick edit to enter the new values.
You are missing the point entirely: it would be merely inconvenient if we would only need to set up a grid once or twice. Unfortunately, every design I do may very well vary a grid's number of columns, rows, and gutter distances.

And while 24 columns may not be used that often by average users, they are not rare in good design at all. I have used grid systems with many more columns (just think about an A3 or A2 or bigger sized design) Besides, the point is moot: even a simple 12 column grid with 5 rows with gutters for each row and column takes about 34 guides to setup. And a LOT of copying and pasting actions when we go with your method: First, write 34 formulas (you may have to do some trial and error to get them right) Secondly: 1)select a formula; 2) create a new guide; 3) paste formula; 4) hit enter 5) go back to step one and repeat 33 times.

And what when you decide, after setting up such a grid, you realize you must adjust the gutter size a bit? Or change the number of rows? Or you want to try a "quick" alternate grid for a different look?

Well, tough luck - go redo them all. Or most of them. Yes, literally hours wasted with a couple of projects. I don't even bother with column and row grids in Photoline at this point, knowing every other layout application out there provides the means to quickly and efficiently create grid systems (and if not, a plugin or two comes to the rescue like in Photoshop) - and those do not even offer formulaic guides, because it is by far quicker to just create a complete new grid with the built-in tools in a matter of seconds rather than painstakingly create one guide at a time. That is why I stated formulaic guides are definitely a step in the right direction, but present us only with part of a complete solution.

Secondly, the fact remains that building column/row grids is something that should not be done manually by inputting values and/or formulas on a computer - this is repetitive task ideally suited for automation. Anything that forces a user to repeat the same steps many times with varying parameters that can be predictably calculated SHOULD be automated. Humans are particularly bad at this type of process. Which is why you came up with an in-between task of first adding all the formulas in a text editor - to prevent mistakes. But don't you agree it is a bit extreme to be forced to open a text editor to list all the guide parameters first, and then inputting them one by one in Photoline?

Knowing such a process can be automated easily, quickly, and infinitely more efficiently with some simple programming statements?

I could probably write a grid generator in a scripting language in less time than it takes me to create two or three 24 column grids with gutters in Photoline. And I would have done this a long time ago if Photoline offered us a scripting API - then we would not have to rely on the brothers to do all this work for us. Indeed, I am sure many of us would have come up with some great functionality by now. A scripting API (preferably Python based) would lighten the load of the devs considerably in the long run. But I do realize implementing this would take a lot of effort on their part - although it is the foremost Achilles' heel of Photoline.
Last edited by Herbert123 on Fri 10 Oct 2014 08:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by Herbert123 »

ellhel wrote:Hallo,

es wäre praktisch, wenn man mehrere Hilfslinien-Presets kombinieren könnte. Zur Zeit werden beim anwenden eines weiterenHilfslinien-Presets die vorhandenen gnadenlos überschrieben.
Ein kleiner Radiobutton mit der Funktion "hinzufügen" wäre super.

LG
Helmut
+1

And a way to quickly turn sets on or off, and combine in any way.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:But don't you agree it is a bit extreme to be forced to open a text editor to list all the guide parameters first, and then inputting them one by one in Photoline?
Not at all. As I've said before, for me PL is first and foremost an image editing application. If more esoteric features are needed in specific areas, then use the dedicated applications for those areas: for vectors you've got Illustrator or CorelDraw, for page layout you've got Quark or InDesign or those other layout programs you use, anyway.

I realize that you would like to have that feature, but I can't imagine a single extra copy of PhotoLine being sold because it has a "kick-ass Guides creation dialog box", and it's doubtful that feature would sway Photoshop Elements users or Paintshop Pro users to switch....

Re-read what I wrote: because the formulas already have the expression for the column width as well as the gutter width, there's no need to redo much of the work -- just substitute your new values and get on with it. Minutes, not hours....
Herbert123 wrote:A scripting API (preferably Python based) would lighten the load of the devs considerably in the long run..
Oh no! Negative on Python -- I don't need to struggle with yet another scripting language. :( The best would be to open up the PL object model as .Net objects so that the excellent Visual Studio editor (part of the Visual Studio Tools for Applications) could be used. I used that with C# to great effect in CorelDraw to write an add-in that divided vector objects; but, realistically, JavaScript would probably be best -- it works great for scripting in Photoshop and Photoshop Elements.
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b2

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:But don't you agree it is a bit extreme to be forced to open a text editor to list all the guide parameters first, and then inputting them one by one in Photoline?
Not at all. As I've said before, for me PL is first and foremost an image editing application. If more esoteric features are needed in specific areas, then use the dedicated applications for those areas: for vectors you've got Illustrator or CorelDraw, for page layout you've got Quark or InDesign or those other layout programs you use, anyway.

I realize that you would like to have that feature, but I can't imagine a single extra copy of PhotoLine being sold because it has a "kick-ass Guides creation dialog box", and it's doubtful that feature would sway Photoshop Elements users or Paintshop Pro users to switch....

Re-read what I wrote: because the formulas already have the expression for the column width as well as the gutter width, there's no need to redo much of the work -- just substitute your new values and get on with it. Minutes, not hours....
Herbert123 wrote:A scripting API (preferably Python based) would lighten the load of the devs considerably in the long run..
Oh no! Negative on Python -- I don't need to struggle with yet another scripting language. :( The best would be to open up the PL object model as .Net objects so that the excellent Visual Studio editor (part of the Visual Studio Tools for Applications) could be used. I used that with C# to great effect in CorelDraw to write an add-in that divided vector objects; but, realistically, JavaScript would probably be best -- it works great for scripting in Photoshop and Photoshop Elements.

Well, let's just agree to disagree on the point of guides in Photoline - Photoshop as well is used for a lot of web and GUI design work, and that is primarily and image editor as well. Most students I teach in web dev classes use Photoshop for their mockups, and that would be unfeasible without good extensions like GuideGuide. Besides, Photoline is not just an image editor for many users here either: it is used for dtp work as well. And has passable vector drawing illustration options as well. Again, any design software I know of provides a solid guide system with automatic guides creation options - it does not matter what type of design work you want to do, grids and good guide control is a very basic part of any design workflow.

Implementing some of that in Photoline would be relatively marginal work.

As for the scripting language choice (aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? ;-) : any .net language is out, because it would not be compatible for Macs.
Javascript is fine with me :-) Already work with that on a daily basis in my work. I was merely suggesting Python because it is very friendly for beginners, and easy to learn.
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