Neue Testversion 18.90b6

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Gerhard Huber
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Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Gerhard Huber »

Hallo,

es gibt wieder eine neue Testversion 18.90b6.


Windows:
www.pl32.com/beta/pl1890b6.zip


Mac OS X:
www.pl32.com/beta/plx1890b6.zip


Neues:
- Neue Funktion: Dunst entfernen (Filter > Qualität)
- Ebenenliste: Testweise kann man über das Kontextmenü abschalten, dass die aktive Ebene auch in geschlossenen Gruppen angezeigt wird


diverse kleinere Fehlerbehebungen und Verbesserungen






Gerhard Huber [Computerinsel GmbH]
support@pl32.de - www.pl32.de
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by photoken »

Wow! The Dehaze filter works really well. On this image I had PL calculate the haze colour and all I did was to adjust the size:
haze result.jpg
The foreground and middleground are not affected at all! :shock: This is great!
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Herbert123 »

The layer selection colour is good, much clearer in my opinion. It is a tad confusing when the user selects multiple layers, however, because only the last active selected layer is clearly selected. I do understand the active layer is important in Photoline. How about allowing all selected layers to be highlighted like that, and use a bold typeface or italic type face for the active layer?

I love how we can turn off the automatic opening of grouped layers, but perhaps a simple general option that we can turn on or off with a shortcut key would be handier. It takes a little too much effort to switch between modes, and generally when working on layouts, it would be far easier and more convenient to switch modes between having the groups open or not by just activating a shortcut similar to, for example, pixel mode, or proof mode. (Not that this should be added to the view menu, btw)

The guides creation panel is brilliant. Really good. And we can also create our own formulas, so even golden grid systems would be relatively simple to save as presets. My only concern is that Photoline does not offer a way to quickly hide and show collections of guides: all guides are created in the same "layer", and with more complicated grids and guide systems (and guide groups based on selections and layers) it quickly becomes a mess - information overload! So either grouping in the layer panel with an eye icon to control the display of certain guide groups, or perhaps link the display of layers to the currently selected layer. When you hide that layer, the layers created in that layer are hidden as well. Either method would make the guide system in Photoline perfect and finished.

Also a possible solution: expand the menu for "all pages, odd pages, even pages, and active page" with a simple option "active layer".

And once more a heart-felt "thank you" for all the hard work.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: How about allowing all selected layers to be highlighted like that, and use a bold typeface or italic type face for the active layer?
Absolutely not. That's much too minor a visual cue.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by arnold_s »

Verwende ich einen der sonderbaren pielförmigen-Linienstile am Ende
Bildschirmfoto 2014-12-03 um 15.11.13.png
mit einem Bamboo-Tablet-Griffel im Modus Vektorzeichnen, kann ich wunderbare variabel breite Linien malen,
die aber verschwinden, sobald ich den Stift absetze, und durch so einen sonderbaren Piel wie in der Linienliste ersetzt werden:
SonderbareLinienstile.png
Hat die Piele sonst noch einer/was ist das, oder hab ich was verstellt?
Zweite Frage:
Wie malt man die variabel breiten Linien(sonst), die neu sind in b5?
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Martin Huber »

arnold_s wrote:Verwende ich einen der sonderbaren pielförmigen-Linienstile am Ende

(...)

mit einem Bamboo-Tablet-Griffel im Modus Vektorzeichnen, kann ich wunderbare variabel breite Linien malen,
die aber verschwinden, sobald ich den Stift absetze, und durch so einen sonderbaren Piel wie in der Linienliste ersetzt werden:

(...)

Hat die Piele sonst noch einer/was ist das, oder hab ich was verstellt?
Ich vermute, die Pfeile hat jeder, der einen der sonderbaren, pfeilförmigen Linienstile am Ende der Linienstilliste verwendet :-).
arnold_s wrote:Zweite Frage:
Wie malt man die variabel breiten Linien(sonst), die neu sind in b5?
Das Vektorzeichnen-Werkzeug ist momentan der einzige Weg, Vektorlinien mit variable Dicke zu erzeugen. Wenn du vor dem Zeichen einen "normalen" Linienstil einstellst (d.h. einen Linienstil ohne Muster), dann sollte es ohne Probleme gehen.

Martin
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: How about allowing all selected layers to be highlighted like that, and use a bold typeface or italic type face for the active layer?
Absolutely not. That's much too minor a visual cue.
But the new selection style is also confusing. Any other design application I use/have used select layers in a layers panel with the same visual cue as the current active layer selection style in this latest version of Photoline. We only need to figure out a pleasing visual method to denote the active layer while still retaining this type of selection highlight for all selected layers. In my opinion the check boxes are not a strong enough visual cue to quickly distinguish selected layers from unselected layers.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:We only need to figure out a pleasing visual method to denote the active layer while still retaining this type of selection highlight for all selected layers. In my opinion the check boxes are not a strong enough visual cue to quickly distinguish selected layers from unselected layers.
I don't agree at all.

There's absolutely no need to highlight all the selected layers with colours. One of the first things taught in design is that the most important object must have the most distinctive visual difference between it and the other objects. In other words, the active layer is the only layer that must have the distinctive highlight. All other layers should not, because they are of secondary importance.

I will never understand the claims made that a large checkmark in a large checkbox at the very front of a layer is somehow not obvious or is not enough of a visual cue to realize which layers are selected. :?
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:We only need to figure out a pleasing visual method to denote the active layer while still retaining this type of selection highlight for all selected layers. In my opinion the check boxes are not a strong enough visual cue to quickly distinguish selected layers from unselected layers.
I don't agree at all.

There's absolutely no need to highlight all the selected layers with colours. One of the first things taught in design is that the most important object must have the most distinctive visual difference between it and the other objects. In other words, the active layer is the only layer that must have the distinctive highlight. All other layers should not, because they are of secondary importance.

I will never understand the claims made that a large checkmark in a large checkbox at the very front of a layer is somehow not obvious or is not enough of a visual cue to realize which layers are selected. :?
Have you ever worked with Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Anime Studio, Flash, Fireworks, Clip Studio (Manga Studio), and other design applications that allow multiple layers to be selected? They ALL use the same approach: one or more layers that are selected are always highlighted with a different colour.

It just works better. It IS more obvious than a single check mark, because our eyes do not have to jump between two places to identify which layers are selected by noting the check box first, and then its name or thumbnail. That is how my eyes do it: first my eyes target the checkbox to see if it is checked, and then I look to the right of each checked check box to work out what either the thumbnail or the layer name is. Or I check the names first, and then I am forced to look to the left for confirmation the layer(s) is actually selected. That slows down my work in the layer panel. It really does compared to other applications. I am not making this up: it is a physical effect. The way it works now in Photoline causes our eyes to jump more than in other design applications. Here is an article on eye tracking the location of form labels:
http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/20 ... -forms.php

This is one of the basic laws of GUI design: Fitt's Law: shorter movement times are desirable, and that also holds true for our eyes. The less movement our eyes have to make to identify what is going on on a screen or on a segment of a user interface, the better.

And, haven't you noticed that when multiple layers are selected with unselected layers in between, how hard it actually is to really see which layers are selected with merely check marks? My eyes jump up and down frantically to understand which layers are selected. This is caused by the fact that only a very small part of our retinal surface, the fovea centralis, is capable of sharp vision.

Again, if all selected layers had a highlighted colour, it is no problem at all to distinguish them (which is how all the other design apps behave), because we do not need the fovea to notice them - large blobs of colour constitute no issue, but tiny check boxes ARE. We are literally physically BLIND to those (the lower ones) when we look examine the top layer of a longer layer stack. Which forces every user of Photoline to performa lot of eye movements to check which layers are actually selected.

It is our biological limit, and a user interface should keep these limits in mind!

Besides the UX Design theory, even if the other selected layers are not the active layer, we multiple select objects through the layer panel all the time in layouts to move them, or to apply certain effect to all the layers at once (or at least, we would if Photoline allowed us to do this too). In my opinion it does make sense to highlight those as well. Almost everyone else in the design industry that develops software seems to think so - why go against the grain, when companies like Adobe have invested large sums of money into user experience research?

Coincidentally, I noticed Clip Studio used almost the same check boxes as Photoline, and they solved it like follows:
Untitled.png
That looks better than the way Photoline implements the selection, and more obvious to me. The active layer is always indicated with a different icon - this could be improved, actually. Other options would be a slightly darker/lighter hue for the active layer, a bold type face for the label name, and even a combination of all three (icon, bold layer label, different hue). And it would still look professional and would not at all create a rainbow effect.

And, by the way, ClipStudio's layer panel also allows the user to drag over either the eyes or the check boxes to select multiple layers. Working with the layer selection in Clip Studio is more fluid and pleasant than Photoline. I also love how the blend mode and opacity setting is visible - that is very helpful when working with more complex compositions.

Then again, I do realize there is no account for individual preferences. But the UX research (and our biological makeup of our eyes) stands on its own, and it tells us that the current visual layer selection implementation in Photoline does have a number of caveats.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:Coincidentally, I noticed Clip Studio used almost the same check boxes as Photoline, and they solved it like follows:
Thank you very much for posting that screenshot of the Clip Studio layers panel. It's a great example of horrible UI design and certainly validates all I've been saying. I couldn't have found a better example for my point of view. :D

The difference in colour between the selected layers and the active layer is so slight that it's really impossible to tell at a glance what's going on.

And that little speck of fly poop that is the icon for the active layer? That's "obvious" and a good solution? Really?? And you claim that the large checkboxes in PL are not obvious?
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Coincidentally, I noticed Clip Studio used almost the same check boxes as Photoline, and they solved it like follows:
Thank you very much for posting that screenshot of the Clip Studio layers panel. It's a great example of horrible UI design and certainly validates all I've been saying. I couldn't have found a better example for my point of view. :D

The difference in colour between the selected layers and the active layer is so slight that it's really impossible to tell at a glance what's going on.

And that little speck of fly poop that is the icon for the active layer? That's "obvious" and a good solution? Really?? And you claim that the large checkboxes in PL are not obvious?
SIgh... Have you read anything I wrote? I merely gave that as an example that can also be improved, but it already works better than the current Photoline layer selection. Have you actually worked with it, or are you basing it solely on the that single screenshot? Have you worked with the other applications I mentioned, and compared their layer panels? Each one has its own caveats and strengths.

At least Clip Studio's version HAS a selection colour, which Photoline does not - only for the active layer. I think I have given some solid reasons based on actual research and our biology that explain why only checkboxes do not suffice. Have you?
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: At least Clip Studio's version HAS a selection colour, which Photoline does not - only for the active layer.
And PL's solution is the right and proper one.
Herbert123 wrote:I think I have given some solid reasons based on actual research and our biology that explain why only checkboxes do not suffice. Have you?
Yep. Read my posts about prioritizing the visual cues for the most important items.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by JulianZI »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: At least Clip Studio's version HAS a selection colour, which Photoline does not - only for the active layer.
And PL's solution is the right and proper one.
I agree - but I do partly understand the confusion. I also had the idea that the meaning of the selection background and checkbox should be reversed - but that would not do the fact justice, that it is possible to click on the checkbox alone to toggle the selection state. So I think the way to highlight the "active" layer is correct.

What I do not like is the fact that selected layers cannot be resized as whole -
that is pretty much a standard feature (although MS Word does not do it correctly since it will equally resize each layer instead of relatively resize and move layers within the selection bounds).
Attached is a screenshot of an old program of myself which did it.
screen.png
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Juan »

Following the idea of the multiple selected layers, here is an screenshot of 2 totally different cad programs, this not only applies to image software.
The check mark (or arrow in other cases) is used only for the active layer and the highlight for the selected ones that can be others than the active one.
Layers select 1.jpg
Layer select 2.jpg
JulianZI wrote:What I do not like is the fact that selected layers cannot be resized as whole -
Yes, I agree, even changing the size or at least the scale via the Layer properties does not work.
If multiple layers are selected, any change done to those should apply immediately and not one by one.

Cheers,
Juan
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b6

Post by Martin Stricker »

Nach längerer Zeit habe ich mal wieder eine Betaversion installiert und dabei festgestellt, dass PL deutlich langsamer geworden ist. Zuerst fiel mir das beim öffnen einer RAW-Datei auf und wurde mit dem in PL integrierten Geschwindigkeitstest bestätigt. Meine Testaktion hat in der Beta 18.90B3 nur 11,14 Sekunden gebraucht in der aktuellen Version aber 38,78 Sekunden. Der Test wurde jeweils nach einem frischen Systemstart ausgeführt. Kann das jemand bestätigen?

LG Martin