Neue Testversion 18.90b10

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ellhel
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b10

Post by ellhel »

Hallo,

wenn ich in den Ebenenattributen eine Drehung mit "Rechtsklick" (auf die Zeile "Winkel") zurücksetze, wird auch die Skalierung zurückgesetzt.
Hätte eigentlich erwartet, das sich das nur auf Drehung bezieht. Ist das Absicht?

Liebe Grüße
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b10

Post by Gerhard Huber »

ellhel wrote:wenn ich in den Ebenenattributen eine Drehung mit "Rechtsklick" (auf die Zeile "Winkel") zurücksetze, wird auch die Skalierung zurückgesetzt.
Hätte eigentlich erwartet, das sich das nur auf Drehung bezieht. Ist das Absicht?
ja, weil die komplette Matrix zurück gesetzt wird.

Gerhard
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b10

Post by ellhel »

OK
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Martin Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b10

Post by Martin Huber »

Gerhard Huber wrote:- Ebenenwerkzeug: Ebenen können nur noch verschoben werden, wenn auf ihren Selektionsbereich geklickt wird.
Das wurde eingebaut, um Click+Drag von nicht-selektierten Ebenen zu unterstützen.
Dummerweise gibt es 2 Probleme:
- Beschnittebenen lassen sich nicht mehr verschieben.
- Ist an der Klickposition hinter der aktiven Ebene eine andere Ebene, wird durch Click&Drag diese andere Ebene zuerst selektiert und dann verschoben.

Beides sollte in der nächsten Beta wieder gehen.

Martin
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Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by photoken »

Win7 x64 SP1
PL 18.90b10 x64 (also PL 18.53 x64)

Steps to reproduce:
  1. Create a new image with a black background.
  2. Create an ellipse on a new layer with a 7px white border and a coloured fill.
  3. Flatten the image.
  4. Use the Automask tool to select the white border, filling the holes so that the entire ellipse is selected. This is the selection at 1600%:
    selection 01.png
Case #1:
  1. Use Edit...Copy without colored edge.
  2. Paste as new document.
  3. Add a layer filled with white beneath that layer. At 1600%, it looks like this:
    selection copy without edge.png
Case #2:
  1. Use Lasso...Extract Selection with the "Remove Color Border" option and "Document" as the destination.
  2. Add a layer filled with white beneath the extracted layer. At 1600%, it looks like this:
    selection extract selection.png
Result:
In both cases, a colour fringe remains after extraction. The colour fringe also seems to have a tint of the ellipse fill colour.

Expected result:
The extracted selection should not have a colour fringe around it.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b10

Post by Herbert123 »

Photoline gets better and better - the small improvements in workflow really add up!

Today I was working with the app link, sending a layer to Krita, and then do some painting, and save it again, so Photoline automatically updates the layer in the composition.
Works great, although I have one small request: after saving the PNG in Krita, and returning to Photoline to check the result, any change made thereafter in Krita is no longer automatically updated. So I need to send the same layer once again to Krita.

My question is: would it be at all possible to add an option that forces Photoline to keep updating the changes made to the file, even after saving it once? I often switch back and forth to make changes, and it would be great if the connection would remain "live", even after saving it once in the external application.

With two windows side by side, we could work in Photoline, and quickly make changes to the layer in the other application, save it, and Photoline would keep updating its file with changes made to in the external app. Then work more in Photoline, keep the layer active in the other application, and quickly switch between the two, working in tandem. That is currently not (yet?) possible, and would be a great addition to the external app link.
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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by Martin Huber »

photoken wrote:Steps to reproduce:
  1. Create a new image with a black background.
  2. Create an ellipse on a new layer with a 7px white border and a coloured fill.
  3. Flatten the image.
  4. Use the Automask tool to select the white border, filling the holes so that the entire ellipse is selected. This is the selection at 1600%:
    selection 01.png
The Automask always creates a binary mask.
photoken wrote:(...)
[*]Use Edit...Copy without colored edge.
[*]Paste as new document.
(...)
The extracted selection should not have a colour fringe around it.
"Copy without colored edge" assumes, that the mask values represent the alpha values resulting image. So in theory, if you have the correct mask values, the function should be able to recalculate the correct original colors (in your example pure white). Unfortunately this doesn't work in the current versions because of some minor bugs. I will fix that.

Creating the correct mask values is the hard part. While it is straightforward in synthetic images (like your example), the straightforward solution doesn't work well with photos. And the opposite is true, too: Solutions, that work good with photos are not that good with synthetic images, because with photos we need to use some kind of fuzziness, that is harmful with synthetic images.
At the moment I don't know how to resolve that conflict.

Martin
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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by photoken »

Martin Huber wrote: Creating the correct mask values is the hard part. While it is straightforward in synthetic images (like your example), the straightforward solution doesn't work well with photos. And the opposite is true, too: Solutions, that work good with photos are not that good with synthetic images, because with photos we need to use some kind of fuzziness, that is harmful with synthetic images.

At the moment I don't know how to resolve that conflict.
Yes, after I posted the example, I realized how very difficult it would be if the example were a photo.

My preference would be for a solution that works good with photos. For example, we ran into many difficulties during the Jennifer Aniston Experiment with extracting her hair using the Border Matting tool. Having a more "aggressive" colour fringe removal in the Extract Selection function would have helped a lot.

I think that for synthetic images I could work around the problem by using the Color to Transparency function on the remaining colour fringes, first protecting the interior areas with a mask, if necessary.

A new Defringe tool, such as offered by RawTherapee
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... nge#p30852
might also help....
Ken
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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by Herbert123 »

Martin Huber wrote:
Creating the correct mask values is the hard part. While it is straightforward in synthetic images (like your example), the straightforward solution doesn't work well with photos. And the opposite is true, too: Solutions, that work good with photos are not that good with synthetic images, because with photos we need to use some kind of fuzziness, that is harmful with synthetic images.
At the moment I don't know how to resolve that conflict.

Martin
I do not think it can (or should) be solved automatically - it depends, as you say, on the subject and the type of artwork. In Photoshop the fringe is far worse than in Photoline with Ken's test case, by the way. But Photoshop solves it with the "Refine Edge" button/dialog. Once a selection/lasso is created, the refine edge dialog allows for easy edge adjustment. It also adds several preview options so that the user can check exactly what the final selection and edges will look like.

Granted, this can also be solved after creating a layer mask based on a lasso/mask by adding in a max, min filter, and some other filters with additional layer masks, but it would simplify things enormously if we had access in Photoline to a similar "refine edge" option to quickly edit the lasso/mask effect.

It is one of only two things I miss when I made the switch to Photoline two years ago. I am not saying you should clone this dialog - not at all. Just somehow include similar control with preview options when creating a mask in Photoline at after the initial lasso is made, so we can easily fine-tune the mask before creating a layer mask or cutting or copying the content.

It looks like this:
dialog.jpg
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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: But Photoshop solves it with the "Refine Edge" button/dialog. Once a selection/lasso is created, the refine edge dialog allows for easy edge adjustment.
I haven't used PS for a very long time, but it seems that we're talking about two separate issues:
  • Refining the edges of a selection (masking).
  • Removing colour fringes left after that selection has been extracted.
How does PS deal with that second issue? It sounds like they provide specifically tailored tools for de-fringing two of the most common cases when dealing with synthetic images: removing a black or a white fringe.
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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: But Photoshop solves it with the "Refine Edge" button/dialog. Once a selection/lasso is created, the refine edge dialog allows for easy edge adjustment.
I haven't used PS for a very long time, but it seems that we're talking about two separate issues:
  • Refining the edges of a selection (masking).
  • Removing colour fringes left after that selection has been extracted.
How does PS deal with that second issue? It sounds like they provide specifically tailored tools for de-fringing two of the most common cases when dealing with synthetic images: removing a black or a white fringe.
Removing fringes after extraction is easily done with a minimum and softness filter - but first you will have to convert the transparency to a layer mask. Applying these effects on the object itself will not work (at least, it will not produce the result you require).

Chromatic aberrations (coloured fringes) in photos can be removed with a variety of tools, such as the replace color tool, or by creating an edge selection and lowering the saturation.

In Photoshop both refinement of the edges of a selection/lasso/mask and removing colour fringes (your example) can be achieved within the same refine edge tool. It will then automatically create a layer mask, or a new layer with layer mask, or a new selection (lasso), or even a new document with or without layer mask. Best of all, ctrl-clicking on the resulting layer mask and loading the selection once again, and opening the refine edge dialog, it optionally remembers the settings you used so it becomes very easy to keep adjusting the mask to the background and circumstances. Aside from this, it becomes super easy to do regular hair cutouts as well - the refine edge dialog includes a selection brush for precise changes.

I prefer Photoline over Photoshop, but for this (and one other) thing. The refine edge option was a stroke of genius when it was implemented, and made life much, much easier.
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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: Applying these effects on the object itself will not work (at least, it will not produce the result you require).
But that's the whole point: You've made a selection, and you want to extract that selection onto a transparent layer without having a colour fringe around the object.

I'm not saying that the Refine Edge tool isn't a great thing, but it seems to me that it's purpose is to create an excellent mask, not to defringe.

As Martin said, a mask can be created for a selected area of a photo or for a selected area of a synthetic image. It sounds like PS has one tool that's optimized for working with selections in a photo and another tool optimized for removing fringes from synthetic images.
Herbert123 wrote:Chromatic aberrations (coloured fringes) in photos can be removed with a variety of tools, such as the replace color tool, or by creating an edge selection and lowering the saturation.
I don't think so. There's no way to specify the replacement colour when the affected areas in a photo are multi-coloured, and lowering the saturation will leave the aberration colour as either a tint or a grayish edge.

If you've got RawTherapee, try its Defringe tool to see what I mean.
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by bkh »

photoken wrote:I'm not saying that the Refine Edge tool isn't a great thing, but it seems to me that it's purpose is to create an excellent mask, not to defringe.
An excellent mask is the starting point for defringing – the mask tells you which pixels are "inside", "outside", or a mix of both, and which proportion of "inside" and "outside". Of course, the defringing tool may create its own mask, but I like PL's approach to separate mask creation and defringing. One obvious disadvantage is that it's difficult to preview the result of defringing.

Btw., defringing works best while extracting from the image, rather than when defringing the extracted image, because in the former case,it's much easier to guess the background colour.

Cheers

Burkhard.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b10

Post by bkh »

Seems that images which have an EXIF rotation are now handled via "Rotate View". This has the disadvantage that all adjustment previews, the magnifier window, icons in the layer panel, etc all show the unrotated image. Also, guides move in unexpected ways. Maybe it would be better to switch back to rotating the background layer during import.

Cheers

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Re: Bug: Color fringe remains after extracting a selection

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: Applying these effects on the object itself will not work (at least, it will not produce the result you require).
But that's the whole point: You've made a selection, and you want to extract that selection onto a transparent layer without having a colour fringe around the object.

I'm not saying that the Refine Edge tool isn't a great thing, but it seems to me that it's purpose is to create an excellent mask, not to defringe.

As Martin said, a mask can be created for a selected area of a photo or for a selected area of a synthetic image. It sounds like PS has one tool that's optimized for working with selections in a photo and another tool optimized for removing fringes from synthetic images.
BKH already supplied an answer to this. I also often remove troublesome fringes WHILE creating a mask. That is exactly what the refine edge tool allows us to do quickly. It works on mask/selection/lasso edges of selections made in synthetic images and in photos. Unless, of course, I misunderstand the scope of what you are saying. The refine edge tool's options include tools to defringe a selection's edges. We get the best of both worlds in one tool.
photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Chromatic aberrations (coloured fringes) in photos can be removed with a variety of tools, such as the replace color tool, or by creating an edge selection and lowering the saturation.
I don't think so. There's no way to specify the replacement colour when the affected areas in a photo are multi-coloured, and lowering the saturation will leave the aberration colour as either a tint or a grayish edge.

If you've got RawTherapee, try its Defringe tool to see what I mean.
That is why I wrote that there are various methods, depending on the subject. I know about the defringe tool in RT as well. But defringing is not only applicable to photos, of course. It depends.
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