Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:1) when in deep selection mode, the user can select & drag other object directly only by clicking on pixels (non-transparent areas).

2) when in normal selection mode, the user can drag objects when clicking/dragging somewhere in the selection rectangle, no matter whether the area clicked within that selection rectangle is transparent or not.
I think that such a totally different behaviour depending on another tool setting is too confusing. Either make it a separate option (layer tool works on visible parts vs. layer tool works on entire layer) or decide.
Then I would suggest opting for the entire rectangle - with smaller elements and text it can be very difficult to precisely select the content in the latest beta version. As Martin mentioned earlier, too many options are confusing.

Although a number of users have expressed the wish to have the option to select through the transparency of layers - and in many cases this is actually very handy to have as well. So perhaps it would be better to add a "select non-transparent only" option in the overall preferences under "working" to at least accommodate those two very different and individualistic working preferences.
bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:I would suggest the following solution:
when a layer has child adjustment layers, the settings of all the direct children should be displayed in the Adjustment Layer panel!
But what about the associated mask layers, which might be totally different for the different adjustments?
Those are still individually selectable in the layer panel. And once selected, they can be moved, edited, and the properties displayed. One of the things that is a bit of a workflow stopper, is that the child adjustment layers' settings are only visible in the adjustment layer panel when directly selected in the layer panel.

Showing the settings of all child adjustment layers in the adjustment layer panel would give us instant access to all the settings (similar behaviour as the grouped layer adjustment layer). If the user only wants to see one adjustment layer settings, the respective adjustment layer can be selected by its own in the layer panel.
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:One of the things that is a bit of a workflow stopper, is that the child adjustment layers' settings are only visible in the adjustment layer panel when directly selected in the layer panel.
That's a good thing, IMO. I do not want the Layer panel to become so filled with unnecessary info that it is difficult to read and find the specific attribute I want to change.
Herbert123 wrote:Showing the settings of all child adjustment layers in the adjustment layer panel would give us instant access to all the settings (similar behaviour as the grouped layer adjustment layer).
"Instant access" is not always a good thing. If you want all the adjustment layer settings in one place, you can just create a "holding" layer for the adjustments, as is done for RAW images.
Ken
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:One of the things that is a bit of a workflow stopper, is that the child adjustment layers' settings are only visible in the adjustment layer panel when directly selected in the layer panel.
That's a good thing, IMO. I do not want the Layer panel to become so filled with unnecessary info that it is difficult to read and find the specific attribute I want to change.
Sure, but they would only be displayed when the parent layer is selected, right? We would still be able to select each adjustment layer individually, and be able to change settings for that one specifically.
photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Showing the settings of all child adjustment layers in the adjustment layer panel would give us instant access to all the settings (similar behaviour as the grouped layer adjustment layer).
"Instant access" is not always a good thing. If you want all the adjustment layer settings in one place, you can just create a "holding" layer for the adjustments, as is done for RAW images.
True. Still more work. My suggestion to display the child adjustment layers' settings when the parent layer is selected would be a nice time safer (in my opinion).

Anyway, aside from this suggestion, it is more important that Martin and Gerhard decide on a good layer selection workflow together with us. What is you opinion in regards to what I wrote earlier?
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:Sure, but they would only be displayed when the parent layer is selected, right?
That's just my point -- when I select the parent layer, I only want to see the info for that layer. The layer I selected, whether it's a parent layer or a child layer, is what I'm interested in.
Herbert123 wrote:True. Still more work. My suggestion to display the child adjustment layers' settings when the parent layer is selected would be a nice time safer (in my opinion).
At the expense of having a very confusing Layer panel with so much info in it that it would be time-consuming to find the relevant info. If I'm understanding what you're suggesting, that is....
Herbert123 wrote:Anyway, aside from this suggestion, it is more important that Martin and Gerhard decide on a good layer selection workflow together with us. What is you opinion in regards to what I wrote earlier?
We have a saying in the States: "I don't have a dog in that fight." :wink:
The current method of selecting items in the main editing window is fine by me. Without using "Deep Selection", I can simply double-click on a group of layers to enter something of a "Group Selection" mode and easily select the appropriate layer. The only thing that doesn't seem to be working is using the arrow keys while holding down the mouse button (as mentioned in the Help). :?
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Sure, but they would only be displayed when the parent layer is selected, right?
That's just my point -- when I select the parent layer, I only want to see the info for that layer. The layer I selected, whether it's a parent layer or a child layer, is what I'm interested in.
Herbert123 wrote:True. Still more work. My suggestion to display the child adjustment layers' settings when the parent layer is selected would be a nice time safer (in my opinion).
At the expense of having a very confusing Layer panel with so much info in it that it would be time-consuming to find the relevant info. If I'm understanding what you're suggesting, that is....
I believe you misunderstood me - the adjustment layer panel would show all the child adjustment layers' settings (not the layer properties). Similar to grouping adjustment layers together in one group (such as the HDR one). Anyway, it is just a workflow enhancement idea.
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bkh
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:
bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:I would suggest the following solution:
when a layer has child adjustment layers, the settings of all the direct children should be displayed in the Adjustment Layer panel!
But what about the associated mask layers, which might be totally different for the different adjustments?
Those are still individually selectable in the layer panel. And once selected, they can be moved, edited, and the properties displayed. One of the things that is a bit of a workflow stopper, is that the child adjustment layers' settings are only visible in the adjustment layer panel when directly selected in the layer panel.
That's not my point. When I use more than one adjustment layer as a child layer, it's usually because it needs a different (mask) layer. For example, I have one set of adjustments for the shadow area and another one for the sky. Having both sets of adjustments visible in one adjustment layer doesn't make sense for me, because I don't know which adjustment affects what area.

My preferred solution (I already made that suggestion when adjustment layers were introduced) would be to integrate the adjustment controls directly into the layer panel – here's a rough sketch what this might look like:
layer panel.png
The adjustments should be collapsable, of course.

Cheers

Burkhard.
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Martin Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Martin Huber »

bkh wrote:Ich habe hier ein Problem mit der Vorschau-Funktion beim PDF-Import. Bei der angehängten Testdatei "verschwindet" bei der Vorschau der Text. Die exportierte PDF lässt sich mit Preview und dem Adobe-Reader und auch PL 18.53 problemlos öffnen (Text ist da), aber beim Öffnen mit der neuen Beta habe ich nur viele anscheinend leere Textebenen. Scheint unabhängig vom verwendeten Font zu sein, mit Lucida Grande dasselbe Ergebnis.
Die aktuelle Beta hat ein Problem beim PDF-Import Probleme bei Text.

Martin
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
My preferred solution (I already made that suggestion when adjustment layers were introduced) would be to integrate the adjustment controls directly into the layer panel – here's a rough sketch what this might look like:
layer panel.png

The adjustments should be collapsable, of course.

Cheers

Burkhard.
Oh ye Gods, please not! :shock: That would make working with the layers a chore! We would be forced to twirl those adjustment layers down and up all the time, and with more complex documents that consist of hundreds of layers it would become mayhem indeed.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by bkh »

Ich habe gestern zum ersten Mal bei einem realen Projekt Platzhalter-Ebenen verwendet. Klappt insgesamt super, insbesondere die nachträglliche Umschaltung zwischen "innen", "außen" und "beschneiden" fand ich sehr praktisch. Und dass man bei "Clipping" den Ausschnitt wählen kann, ohne dass sich der Platzhalter verschiebt, ist einfach klasse!

Ein paar Kleinigkeiten sind mir aufgefallen:
  • wenn eine Platzhalter-Ebene nicht gefüllt ist, wird (zumindest beim PDF-Export) das Symbol für die fehlende Datei mit ins fertige Dokument geschrieben. Bei meiner Anwendung war es so, dass ich nicht immer alle Platzhalter brauchte, dafür wäre es praktischer, wenn solche Ebenen einfach gar nicht ausgegeben würden. Bei der Bildschirmanzeige wäre es auch nett, wenn man sie auch im Ansicht-Menü ausschalten könnte.
  • Vielleicht könnte man die Art des Platzhalters (innen/außen/beschneiden) noch mit in die Werkzeugeinstellungen aufnehmen?
  • Vielleicht wäre ein anderes Symbol ganz nett (z. B. irgendein angedeutetes Foto, Silhouette eines Kopfes oder Berge oder …), wie man es von anderen Programmen kennt, oder ein Text ("Hier Bild einfügen"), ggf. ein anderes Symbol ("?") für ein fehlendes Bild.
  • Natürlich musste ich auch gleich einen Bilderordner umbenennen, dadurch hat PL natürlich die Bilder nicht wiedergefunden. Bei vielen Programmen reicht es dann, ein Bild aus dem Ordner neu zu suchen, und die anderen Bilder aus dem Ordner werden dann automatisch gefunden (dort wird also der alte durch den neuen Pfad ersetzt, wenn das entsprechende Bild existiert).
  • Ich persönlich würde mich wohler fühlen, wenn es für die PLD eine Option gäbe, Kopien der Bilder mit abzuspeichern (vielleicht einfach als zusätzliche Bildebene unter der Platzhalter-Ebene?). Fürs Archiv habe ich im Moment alle Platzhalter-Ebenen in normale Ebenen umgewandelt, das war aber (bei 75 Ebenen) ein bisschen umständlich.
L.G.

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by evren »

Hoogo wrote:Who came up with the idea to change the move tool?
Before you could click and drag anywhere within a layer to move it, now you have to hit some set pixels. I find that behavior a bit disgusting. Again some Photoshop feature or what?
Me completely agree. Why a software needs to follow other softwares mistakes just for the sake of their popularity?
I'm clicking more and more regarding to workflow.

Before, if you're working under the same layer group: You click once, you see which layer is selected.
Than you move... And no accidental move.
> Now you had to directly click and drag because if you click 2. time it jumps to another layer.
> So new workflow is drag, UNDO drag again UNDO curse curse curse
> and select from the layer list and drag with keybord finally.

Before when you click on an object it selects layer group first, 2. click sub layer...
> Now directly jumps and moves sublayer and UNDO. If deep selection is inactive, can't even go other layer groups.

For people using a few layers, there are many alternatives. Demanding features without thinking of side efeects killing a complete software. Come on guys don't be fan of your old softwares. All bloated and scrambled. Let photoline be straight at least.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:Then I would suggest opting for the entire rectangle - with smaller elements and text it can be very difficult to precisely select the content in the latest beta version. As Martin mentioned earlier, too many options are confusing.
As far as selecting layers goes, I think that only selecting visible content worked ok – it's been there at least since PL 18, and I don't really see a reason to change it back.

The current problems stem from the attempt to add "click-and-drag". Formerly, one had to select a layer first, and the selected layer could then be dragged (from anywhere in the layer rectangle). Some people proposed to change this – click-and-drag anything visible without having to select it first. The main difference – in theory – is that if one wants to drag the selected layer(s), then one has to grab them at a visible point – else click-and-drag will grab something below and move that.

Currently, there are still a few bugs when selecting, e.g.,
evren wrote:Before when you click on an object it selects layer group first, 2. click sub layer...
> Now directly jumps and moves sublayer and UNDO. If deep selection is inactive, can't even go other layer groups.
– after all, this is a beta version, and this is an experimental feature.

I think that we should judge this new feature by what it's supposed to do, and not by what still doesn't work (the current beta 11 is already a significant improvement over beta 10) – of course, if the problems can't be fixed in a reasonable way, then we should just go back to the old UI.

In my opinion, there are mainly two points worth discussing:

Firstly,
Hoogo wrote: Before you could click and drag anywhere within a layer to move it, now you have to hit some set pixels.
This means that moving a previously selected object becomes more difficult – but on the other hand, this is consistent with the area that can be used for selecting that object.

Secondly, click-and-drag doesn't make much sense (imo) if you happen to select an adjustment layer, layer mask or something similar instead of the visible object just behind it. So – as Herbert wrote before – one would have to change the way selection works – and exclude adjustment layers etc from the kinds of layers which are selectable by the layer tool. I think that this may be reasonable even if it turns out that click-and-drag doesn't work – I often mistakenly select these kinds of layers when using the layer tool (they could simply be locked against selecting in the layer panel, so that this can be changed back for individual layers).

Cheers

Burkhard.
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:4) instead of a modifier key set of <CTRL><SHIFT> to switch between deep selection and normal selection, why not introduce a single hotkey to switch modes (and no modifier keys).
Is anybody using the modifier keys for copying layers? If I want to copy layers, I use copy/paste.
Herbert123 wrote:b) The behaviour of the layer tool modes becomes much more consistent as well (since the layer tool deep selection option already functions as a mode switch anyway when clicked!).
I don't see a better consistency.
Herbert123 wrote:Proposal for (4): use the <TAB> key to switch between normal and deep selection mode! That makes a lot of sense, and is easily memorized. <TAB> does not refer to any other function in Photoline currently.
I don't have strong feelings here. Personally I prefer the modifiers.
Herbert123 wrote:(Another suggestion: use <SHIFT><TAB> to quickly run through child layers on the same level to select in descending order! Similar to the <ALT><TAB> behaviour in Windows and Mac to quickly switch between applications).
You can assign a short to "Activate Previous Layer"/"Active Next Layer".

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Martin Huber »

bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:1) when in deep selection mode, the user can select & drag other object directly only by clicking on pixels (non-transparent areas).

2) when in normal selection mode, the user can drag objects when clicking/dragging somewhere in the selection rectangle, no matter whether the area clicked within that selection rectangle is transparent or not.
I think that such a totally different behaviour depending on another tool setting is too confusing.
- If selecting a layer by clicking on its content is acceptable, dragging is, too.
- That interferes with click&drag and disallows the use case, that started this modification of the layer tool.
bkh wrote:Either make it a separate option (layer tool works on visible parts vs. layer tool works on entire layer) or decide.
You already can turn on selection by frame in the options. But that affects both selecting and dragging.
bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:5) child layer masks and child layer adjustments should not be selectable in the view, only by clicking on them in the layer panel. I am of the opinion that child layer masks and adjustment layers do not relate directly to the actual content, and allowing users to select these in the view only gets in the way of usabilty (which is exemplified by some of the complaints already made about this behaviour)
I tend to agree – (but at least the clouds adjustment layer is an exception).
I will remove the ability to directly select adjustment layers, clipping layers and groups in deep selection mode. And if one of this layer types is selected by an alternate way (Layer List, context menu, click and arrow keys), it can't be deselected by click&drag which allows to drag them. They still can be deselected by a single click.

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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Martin Huber »

photoken wrote:[The only thing that doesn't seem to be working is using the arrow keys while holding down the mouse button (as mentioned in the Help). :?
I will fix that.

Martin
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Re: Neue Testversion 18.90b11

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:Showing the settings of all child adjustment layers in the adjustment layer panel would give us instant access to all the settings (similar behaviour as the grouped layer adjustment layer). If the user only wants to see one adjustment layer settings, the respective adjustment layer can be selected by its own in the layer panel.
In my opinion that is too confusing.
I regularly have groups with adjustments. And inside the group there are additional adjustment layers. Or I have an adjustment layer that has a child adjustment layer that modifies its mask.

Martin