Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

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jw2004
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by jw2004 »

As my thought, the deepest reason is the PL's alogrithm about transparency have some bug.

I say again, if you deeply test, you'll find more strange things about transparence.
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Eurgail
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by Eurgail »

bkh wrote:
jw2004 wrote:There a simple test file, I can't move the circle layer with mouse.

It seems than if the layer is a simple layer without any adjustment layer or mask, Alt + click works, else you can't move the layer with mouse.
Doens't have to do with the layer mask – this is similar to http://www.pl32.com/forum3/memberlist.p ... file&u=924 – currently PL doesn't handle the lowest visible layer correctly. Put another layer underneath, and dragging will work as expected. Unfortunately, this still hasn't been fixed in PL b13.

Cheers

Burkhard.
That's it. When you make the black background layer visible, it works fine.
Martin Huber
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by Martin Huber »

bkh wrote:Doens't have to do with the layer mask – this is similar to http://www.pl32.com/forum3/memberlist.p ... file&u=924
This links to your member profile.
bkh wrote:currently PL doesn't handle the lowest visible layer correctly. Put another layer underneath, and dragging will work as expected.
Really? IMO that't just the clasic click&drag problem: you can't drag a layer, if there is a layer above it, because click&drag will select the topmost visible layer and drag that.

I will add an option to the Tool Settings to turn on the old behaviour: If you are clicking and dragging inside the frame of the active layer, no other layer will be selected, but the active layer will be dragged.

Martin
bkh
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by bkh »

Martin Huber wrote:
bkh wrote:Doens't have to do with the layer mask – this is similar to http://www.pl32.com/forum3/memberlist.p ... file&u=924
This links to your member profile.
Oops, this should have been http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... 060#p34060
Martin Huber wrote:
bkh wrote:currently PL doesn't handle the lowest visible layer correctly. Put another layer underneath, and dragging will work as expected.
Really? IMO that't just the clasic click&drag problem: you can't drag a layer, if there is a layer above it, because click&drag will select the topmost visible layer and drag that.
I don't think so – as I wrote, if you place three identical layers on top of each other and select the middle one (in the layer panel or by clicking on the top layer until the middle layer is selected), then you can drag that middle layer – this is just perfect, I think. (As far as I can see, it's the mouse-up event which selects the next layer if there has been no drag – this looks like the right thing to do, and might even re-enable dragging of adjustment layers etc.)

Cheers

Burkhard.
Martin Huber
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by Martin Huber »

bkh wrote:I don't think so – as I wrote, if you place three identical layers on top of each other and select the middle one (in the layer panel or by clicking on the top layer until the middle layer is selected), then you can drag that middle layer
It works here, if I select the middle layer by clicking inside the document window. If I select it via the Layer List, it doesn't work, because the top layer is selected.
The reason for this is quite complicated:
- If you don't move the mouse and just click, the layer beneath the active one is selected.
- If you click and drag, and the layer, that should be selected, is beneath the active one, PhotoLine will drag the active one. Otherwise it will select the other layer and drag that one (new click&drag behaviour).
- There are situations, where you don't want to select the layer beneath the active one by clicking, but instead you want to select the topmost visible layer. Therefore if the mouse leaves the content of the active layer, the next mouse-click will not select the layer beneath, but the topmost. This is, what happens, if I select the layer in the Layer List.

Martin
jw2004
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by jw2004 »

Martin Huber wrote:
bkh wrote:I don't think so – as I wrote, if you place three identical layers on top of each other and select the middle one (in the layer panel or by clicking on the top layer until the middle layer is selected), then you can drag that middle layer
It works here, if I select the middle layer by clicking inside the document window. If I select it via the Layer List, it doesn't work, because the top layer is selected.
The reason for this is quite complicated:
- If you don't move the mouse and just click, the layer beneath the active one is selected.
- If you click and drag, and the layer, that should be selected, is beneath the active one, PhotoLine will drag the active one. Otherwise it will select the other layer and drag that one (new click&drag behaviour).
- There are situations, where you don't want to select the layer beneath the active one by clicking, but instead you want to select the topmost visible layer. Therefore if the mouse leaves the content of the active layer, the next mouse-click will not select the layer beneath, but the topmost. This is, what happens, if I select the layer in the Layer List.

Martin
Since new click&drag behavior become so complicate, it's difficult to determine the action for human and computer, please give us a simply way to do it. sometimes, the simplest is the best.
Or give a option to select click&drag mode.
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Eurgail
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by Eurgail »

The problem exists only for the lowest layer: It cannot be moved like all the others. The simplest example is with two layers, not three; but with three layers, it gets visible, that click and move works not also with the topmost but also with middle layers.
If there is a layer stack, you can click and release on the topmost layer to switch to the layers beneath. If you then click and release again, you get the next, but if you click and move, the layer, that is selected, gets moved. But if the lowermost layer is selected this way the move function doesn't work. Instead the topmost layer becomes selected again.

You meant that, Burkhard, didn't you?
bkh
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by bkh »

Martin Huber wrote:- There are situations, where you don't want to select the layer beneath the active one by clicking, but instead you want to select the topmost visible layer. Therefore if the mouse leaves the content of the active layer, the next mouse-click will not select the layer beneath, but the topmost. This is, what happens, if I select the layer in the LaNSStringPboardTypeyer List.
Ah, that explains the difference. I think my layers filled the entire window, so the cursor never left the layer (the same happens if you change the active layer by using keyboard shortcuts for the menu commands). Still, that doesn't work for the bottom most layer in document mode.

Yes, you are probably right – an option "drag frontmost object" vs. "drag active object" probably makes sense – the two options are mutually exclusive if the clicked window position is shared by both.

Cheers

Burkhard.
bkh
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by bkh »

Eurgail wrote: You meant that, Burkhard, didn't you?
Exactly. (I wasn't aware from the additional complication mentioned by Martin that sometimes the "clicking order" gets reset.)

Cheers

Burkhard.
Martin Huber
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by Martin Huber »

bkh wrote:
Martin Huber wrote:- There are situations, where you don't want to select the layer beneath the active one by clicking, but instead you want to select the topmost visible layer. Therefore if the mouse leaves the content of the active layer, the next mouse-click will not select the layer beneath, but the topmost. This is, what happens, if I select the layer in the LaNSStringPboardTypeyer List.
Ah, that explains the difference. I think my layers filled the entire window, so the cursor never left the layer (the same happens if you change the active layer by using keyboard shortcuts for the menu commands). Still, that doesn't work for the bottom most layer in document mode.
Yes, because a click on the bottom most layer will select the top most layer, and therefore this one will be selected and dragged.
bkh wrote:Yes, you are probably right – an option "drag frontmost object" vs. "drag active object" probably makes sense – the two options are mutually exclusive if the clicked window position is shared by both.
And the "drag frontmost object" (aka "click&drag") should probably not support the click-through technique to select bottom layers.

Martin
bkh
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by bkh »

Martin Huber wrote:And the "drag frontmost object" (aka "click&drag") should probably not support the click-through technique to select bottom layers.
Yes, click-through doesn't make sense then – then it's click-and-drag-what-you-see, really.

But I think that the other mode should be as in PL 18.53 – for me, it's the best of the two worlds. I can drag the active layer from within the entire layer frame but it still supports click-and-drag when the object is outside the active layer. That seems to work pretty well for me, and I can always "Deselect" before clicking/dragging if the active layer is in the way.

Cheers,

Burkhard.
Martin Huber
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by Martin Huber »

bkh wrote:But I think that the other mode should be as in PL 18.53 – for me, it's the best of the two worlds. I can drag the active layer from within the entire layer frame but it still supports click-and-drag when the object is outside the active layer. That seems to work pretty well for me, and I can always "Deselect" before clicking/dragging if the active layer is in the way.
I'll try that, but I might be missing some detail, so please check it in the next version.

Martin
bkh
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Re: Don't understand:Why Drag to move related to transparency

Post by bkh »

Martin Huber wrote: I'll try that, but I might be missing some detail, so please check it in the next version.
Sounds great – thanks!

Burkhard.