Neue Testversion 19.40b10

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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: I find it very frustrating to have to click on the main view to "confirm" I wish to move or work with that layer.
No, you're not "confirming" that you want to move the layer's contents, you're simply telling the program what to work with instead of assuming the program will read your mind.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: I find it very frustrating to have to click on the main view to "confirm" I wish to move or work with that layer.
No, you're not "confirming" that you want to move the layer's contents, you're simply telling the program what to work with instead of assuming the program will read your mind.
Then I ask you: why would Photoline deviate from the norm? Unless this layer workflow change benefits the overall workflow, my opinion is that it should stick to conventions as used everywhere else in the "industry" (meaning: other design software).
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Hoogo »

Martin Huber wrote:
Hoogo wrote:
Juan wrote:When a layer is set in RGB values 128,128,128, then the Lasso cursor can´t be seeing on that layer since there is no contrast between them.
I´m on Win10 PL 19.40B10
Indeed :shock: If I remember correctly, that was solved for Windows some years ago and was only a problem for Mac?
No, that problem can't occur on Mac OS, because Mac OS doesn't support XOR mouse cursors.

On Windows PhotoLine uses the cross cursor offered by Windows and this one seems to use the XOR mode. You can force PhotoLine to use its own cross instead by using the mouse settings (turning off "Use System Cursor").

Maybe we should turn that off by default or remove it altogether?

Martin
I mixed something, see here. Today the brush shape is painted with Xor $80, don't know how it is on Mac.
What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by photoken »

Hoogo wrote:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
Yes, I'd like to see such a CAD cursor option in addition to the precise cursor:
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... 858#p35975
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: (...) conventions as used everywhere else in the "industry" (meaning: other design software).
No, it's not "used everywhere".

CorelDraw X5 has been using the new PL behaviour for years -- if you've clicked on a layer in the layer list, the arrow keys scroll through the list. If you click on an object in the main editing window, the arrow keys move the object.

Illustrator CS5 doesn't allow using the arrow keys at all in the layers list, so you have to use the mouse to click on a layer to select it. Because of that limited capability, once you've selected a layer the arrow keys move the layer's content.
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: (...) conventions as used everywhere else in the "industry" (meaning: other design software).
No, it's not "used everywhere".

CorelDraw X5 has been using the new PL behaviour for years -- if you've clicked on a layer in the layer list, the arrow keys scroll through the list. If you click on an object in the main editing window, the arrow keys move the object.

Illustrator CS5 doesn't allow using the arrow keys at all in the layers list, so you have to use the mouse to click on a layer to select it. Because of that limited capability, once you've selected a layer the arrow keys move the layer's content.
You got me there. I should have said "most" design applications I am familiar with (as far as I am aware, and in my experience). It does not invalidate my other points, though. The real question is whether CorelDraw's and (currently new) Photoline's approach improves a layer based workflow in an image editor, or hampers it.

How often will a user actually use the keys to select groups of layers? Or browse through layers with keys? Compared to moving content with the cursor keys. and utilizing the mouse to browse and select layers?

Let's compare with the industry standard (Photoshop): selecting a layer always allows for direct manipulation of a layer with the cursor keys. To select layers with the keyboard, <alt><[> and <alt><]> are used, in combination with <shift> to select multiple layers. After using the keyboard to select layers, the cursor keys can be used to move the selected content. It is direct, and it works well. Better than the current approach in Photoline's newest beta, which just takes more clicks, and more careful clicking, and ends up as a more convoluted workflow.

I think we should ask ourselves HOW we work most efficiently with layers in Photoline. Do we focus on content, or on the layer list with cursor keys? I had no issues working with the previous versions of Photoline. Select one or more layers, and I can move the content with the cursor keys (as long as the layer tool is active). Now I do encounter workflow paint points: it takes me extra time, and extra effort, because I must click very specific GUI elements before I can move elements with the cursor keys after selecting them in the layer panel. And there are issues, which I mentioned in my previous post, with the current implementation as it is, which lead to inconsistent behaviour in Photoline.

If anything, I strongly suggest to make this behaviour a preference setting. At the very least accommodate both workflows. Please do not force the new method on all of us. That is all I ask. It is very hard adjusting one's kinetic memory of decades to a new method (one that already costs me more time and effort to work with in the latest beta).
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Falaffel »

Hoogo wrote:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I asked for that in this thread. I would be happy too, if this will beimplemented.
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Re: Prob: Visibility of precise cursor on high-res display

Post by Martin Huber »

photoken wrote:There is a problem with the visibility of the precise cursor when the crosshair uses dots instead of a solid line.

I recently purchased a new notebook computer with a high-resolution display (2880 x 1620), with Win7 Pro x64.
What's the dpi value or zoom of the display in the Windows settings?

Martin
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Martin Huber »

Hoogo wrote:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Eurgail »

Martin Huber wrote:
Hoogo wrote:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
That is my opinion, too.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Juan »

Martin Huber wrote:
Hoogo wrote:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".

And "auto contrast" cursor could be the solution?

Cheers,
Juan
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Juan »

Hoogo wrote:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".

And "auto contrast" cursor could be the solution?

Cheers,
Juan[/quote]
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Martin Huber »

Juan wrote:
Martin Huber wrote:I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".
The question whether a full window cross hair is useful is independent of your problem.

The solution to your problem is a mouse cursor that doesn't use XOR. You can currently get that by turning off "Use System Cursor" in the mouse settings.

But as I said: Maybe we shouldn't use this system cursor at all.

Martin
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Hoogo »

Martin Huber wrote:I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.
I agree that it is becoming less useful for really precise selection as the resolution increases, or when you have a zoom of less than 100%. But it's good enough for cropping. Today I start the crop rectangle more or less anywhere and adjust these 2 borders later, while I can adjust the end point of the crop rectangle right from the start.
Juan wrote:But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".
Like the brush outlines, these lines would be drawn by PL, it would be drawn with XOR 128, that's visible anywhere.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Post by Martin Huber »

Hoogo wrote:I agree that it is becoming less useful for really precise selection as the resolution increases, or when you have a zoom of less than 100%. But it's good enough for cropping.
There are already the position marks in the ruler.
Hoogo wrote:Today I start the crop rectangle more or less anywhere and adjust these 2 borders later, while I can adjust the end point of the crop rectangle right from the start.
What 's the difference between the start and the end point? Both are showing their position in the ruler and both can be aligned to guides and grid.
Hoogo wrote:
Juan wrote:But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".
Like the brush outlines, these lines would be drawn by PL, it would be drawn with XOR 128, that's visible anywhere.
That might be possible on Windows, but it isn't on Mac OS.
These lines would essentially cover the whole screen, so at least on Mac OS PhotoLine would have to redraw the whole window, if it wanted to use XOR 128. And this would make it too slow. So a potential cross hair would probably be drawn the same way as the automatic guides: in a transparent window above the document window.

Martin