Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
User avatar
Gerhard Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 4028
Joined: Mon 18 Nov 2002 15:30
Location: Bad Gögging

Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Gerhard Huber »

Hallo,

es gibt wieder eine neue Testversion 19.40b11.


Windows:
http://www.pl32.com/beta/pl1940b11.zip


Mac OS:
http://www.pl32.com/beta/plx1940b11.zip



Neues:
- Ebenenliste: aktiviert jetzt wieder automatisch das Dokument
- ICC-Farbprofile: Testweise gibt die Quelle das Rendering Intent an
- PicRotate: Dreht Bild jetzt unter Berücksichtigung von Alpha
- Beschneidenwerkzeug: Das Rechteck kann jetzt mit der Tastatur auch über die Dokumentränder geschoben werden
- PSD-Import überarbeitet: Gradation ohne Kurvenänderung
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2041
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Herbert123 »

The bug with the child adjustment layer banding is already resolved! You guys are quick! Thanks!

Thank you for restoring the old layer move behaviour - much obliged. It was driving me insane.

The layer search works quite well. ctrl-f, and start typing to find stuff. Great! Ctrl-f once more, and the search closes.
Which search commands are available? To find a specific layer label I had to prefix a '+'. &virtual; &text; &vector; ℑ etc. search for layer types. But I cannot seem to combine two layer types, or find a specific text layer by typing its label name when the text is between double quotes.

I believe the mosaic filter works a little bit better now when borders are turned off for non-squeare tiles? There are still artifacts between tiles, though.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2041
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Herbert123 »

Both troublesome SVG files (mine with the clipping character and wild hair, and PhotoKen's flag) now import correctly - the flag even WITH the crop intact! Awesome!

The stamp tool bug is squashed too. As is <5 pixels area remove bug.

I am especially grateful for the SVG and PSD import improvements. Regarding PSD import: I noticed that layer group masks and combined bitmap/vector masks in layers are still unsupported. If those would be added, I think Photoline would earn the award "world's best PSD import".
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2041
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Herbert123 »

Guide creator bug: if the formula box is checked, only formulas for the columns and row are generated, but not for the margins.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

SVG import fixed

Post by photoken »

Yes, the Confederate Battle Flag SVG image now opens with the stars sized correctly. Thanks!
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Old layer behaviour -- not good

Post by photoken »

Now that I've had a chance to work with both behaviours of the Layers panel & arrow keys, I have to say that I thoroughly dislike the reversion to the incorrect old behaviour.

When other lists and panels are active and therefore have the input focus, the arrow keys will scroll through the items. That is consistent, obvious, sensible, logical and expected. This is also the standard behaviour in all Windows applications.

But now the Layers panel does not follow that standard behaviour. Instead, the arrow keys unexpectedly shift around the contents of a completely different window!?! This behaviour fails all five of the above criteria.

This incorrect behaviour is also inefficient when using a mouse, constantly forcing one to move one's hand away from the keyboard to the mouse to select a layer and then move one's hand back to the keyboard to make precise moves of the content with the arrow keys.

If the Layers panel behaviour kept the input focus and there were a keyboard combo to shift the input focus to the editing window and back (perhaps Ctrl+< and Ctrl+>), one could very quickly scroll through long layer lists and adjust specific layers without ever having to remove one's hand from the keyboard.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2041
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Herbert123 »

Sorry Ken, I disagree. I think the primary focus of the layer panel is to select elements to work with in the main view, and the layers in the layer panel themselves are of less importance. That is also how it works in Photoshop, for example, and there is a good reason for it, in my opinion. In the other thread most of us preferred the old/current behaviour. There is a difference between consistent/logical behaviour, and the most efficient workflow behaviour in a GUI.

The layers panel is great to select visually obscured elements, and selecting content in more complex documents - and it has been mentioned before in the other thread that it becomes really hard to move things when the user is forced to first select the document window by carefully clicking arbitrary areas. Select layer, work with content in main view. The focus should be on the content, not on the layers.

However! I think we could easily solve this by adding an option to allow us to (re)define the keys used for both moving content AND browsing through the layer stack. Or a behavior switch in the preferences. Then we may adjust the keys behaviour to suit our individual preference. And you would not have to first activate the layers panel to be able to navigate it with cursor keys! Less clicks is good!

For example, I currently have the layer navigation set to <alt>up and <alt>down. That allows me to browse the layer stack, AND quickly move layer content with the cursor keys, and I do not have to use the mouse at all - not even to click the either the layers or the main window.

It would be great if the move keys could be changed to alternate ones instead of the fixed cursor keys. That would be the solution.

One issue is that the layer navigation in the layer navigation menu only seems to work for the current 'level' in the layer hierarchy. I would prefer to be able to just jump in and out of layer groups with these keys. That does not seem to be possible as it is implemented currently.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Old layer behaviour -- not good

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: I think the primary focus of the layer panel is to select elements to work with in the main view, and the layers in the layer panel themselves are of less importance.
That's why this old incorrect behaviour is wrong. The arrow keys are now useless for selecting "elements to work with".

If the layers are somehow "of less importance", how can they then be used "to select elements to work with"? That doesn't make sense.

As I pointed out before, CorelDraw (and other Windows programs) uses the arrow keys to scroll through a list in the active window. Only two people here have complained about the new, correct behaviour and the substance of their complaints seems to be that they've become accustomed to the old, incorrect behaviour.

I'll say this again -- I think the complaints about the correct behaviour of the Layers panel are because this behaviour was implemented without also providing a quick keyboard method of switching the input focus from the Layers panel to the editing window and back again.

You've pointed out problems with the current incorrect behaviour, and rightly so. To my way of thinking, the best solution is to have the arrow keys always operate on the area that has the input focus. So, if the Layers panel has the focus, the up and down arrow keys should move the selection up and down through all the layers. The left and right arrow keys should collapse and expand (respectively) a layer group. If the editing window has the focus, the four arrow keys should move the layer content in their respective directions. The "<" and ">" keys, which are now unused should be used for switching the focus from the Layers panel to the editing window and back again. (By the way, this proposed behaviour would also work for every other list panel and dialog window.)

That behaviour would not only fulfill the consistent, obvious, sensible, logical and expected criteria, but also be the most efficient way of working with every layer.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
Falaffel
Mitglied
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun 26 May 2013 12:33

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Falaffel »

Hey, we can have it in the next Beta the new way and in the next beta the old way an in the next beta the new way... Aaaaand ... Some day there will be the PL 20 without any great improvements because the hubers wasted so much time with such little things.
In this forum there are so much great ideas for new Features/improvements and most of them are more important like the behaviour of the Layer panel.

Please think more about benefits for PL and not for the needs of few users.
Grüße
Robert
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2041
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Herbert123 »

The thing is, I do not see any benefit in having to consciously activate the view when I select a layer in the layer panel; it breaks the workflow. Select a layer in the layer panel (either by mouse, or by keyboard), and then move it, hide it, transform it, etc. Direct, simple, unconscious.

Instead of selecting a layer, then to remember to activate the main view, and perform the action. And many designers dislike the use of shortcut keys as well - how would one then switch the focus back to the main view? Forcing the user to carefully click in particular areas again breaks the workflow. Select a layer, then do not forget to activate the main edit window. It is just TOO awkward.

In the last version I kept having to zoom out and pan the view to find a stretch of canvas not populated with any content, because I could not click on the content without selecting other things. Even with a short-cut key to switch, one still has to remember that additional action. Same for activating the layer panel.
That's why this old incorrect behaviour is wrong. The arrow keys are now useless for selecting "elements to work with".
And who is saying the cursor keys are generally used to select things? Even in a word processor the arrow keys are used to MOVE through the text, not select text - an additional modifier key (shift) is required to do this.

And according to GUI standards: agreed, list views can be NAVIGATED by pressing the cursor keys - but navigating is different from actually selecting those list items. Usually list views require an additional confirmation to select that item, or confirm the action.

Look at sub menus: a list which can be navigated with the cursor keys, after which <enter> is used to select/confirm a menu entry. Or a list of radio buttons, or check boxes. Or a drop-down list in a form: again, the cursor keys are used to navigate, not select.

The common use of cursor keys is to either navigate or move. It is generally not a "select" action at all. Selecting layers in the layer panel with the cursor keys makes no logical GUI sense from that point of view. CorelDraw and GIMP have it upside down - when looking at it from the perspective of content editing and common GUI standards.

That is why it is preferable to assign other keys to the action of browsing and selecting layers with the keyboard - which is what Adobe's Photoshop and Illustrator decided on.


All layer selection problems can be easily mitigated by assigning other keys to select elements / browse through the layer list. Page up/down, the arrow keys on the numpad, the [] or ,. keys: it does not matter. Like I said, I assigned <alt><up> and <alt><down> to run through the layers: extremely efficient, and I do not require the use of the mouse to move things and select layers.

Which means I am freed from pressing an additional two keys to switch between the layer panel and the main view. Those actions become irrelevant! Also no arbitrary clicks are then required either to select either one. It speeds up the workflow. Less conscious clicks/keys is a better proposition. Why introduce additional actions when it can be solved otherwise?

Caveat of the current status: the layer navigation keys fail to work well with groups and do NOT work yet with filtered layer lists and the layer search function.

In short, I think we should have these options:

1) Change the layer navigation previous and next behaviour in Photoline to browse through the layer stack in order to allow for jumping in and out of groups, which is currently not possible. Perhaps add a key to open a group in the layer panel.

2) By default the cursor keys ought to move elements in the main view according to GUI standards (which is the case now). (Perhaps allow these keys to be changed in the custom keyboard settings, in order for users who prefer to navigate the layer panel with the cursor keys, and move content with different keys.)

3) When the search option is active, we should be able to use the layer navigation keys to browse through the layer stack. Currently this is not possible, and the layer navigation selects layers which are present in the hidden "non-search" state.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2041
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Herbert123 »

Falaffel wrote:Hey, we can have it in the next Beta the new way and in the next beta the old way an in the next beta the new way... Aaaaand ... Some day there will be the PL 20 without any great improvements because the hubers wasted so much time with such little things.
In this forum there are so much great ideas for new Features/improvements and most of them are more important like the behaviour of the Layer panel.

Please think more about benefits for PL and not for the needs of few users.
Workflow is important to get right, in my opinion.

But yeah, there are some major features I would like to see implemented. Don't forget though, that by only focusing on new snazzy features it may result in workflow stagnation.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Eurgail
Mitglied
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun 06 Jul 2014 23:02

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Eurgail »

Herbert123 wrote:Sorry Ken, I disagree.
+1
beiti
Mitglied
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun 16 Nov 2008 01:48

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by beiti »

Gerhard Huber wrote: - ICC-Farbprofile: Testweise gibt die Quelle das Rendering Intent an
Was genau bedeutet das? Wann wirkt diese Funktion bzw. an welcher Stelle verhält PhotoLine sich dadurch anders?
Falaffel
Mitglied
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun 26 May 2013 12:33

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Falaffel »

Herbert123 wrote:Workflow is important to get right, in my opinion.

But yeah, there are some major features I would like to see implemented. Don't forget though, that by only focusing on new snazzy features it may result in workflow stagnation.
Thats right. Now they set the Layer Panel back to the old behaviour, because most of the users voted for, so it should be good an been accapted.
Grüße
Robert
bkh
Betatester
Posts: 3661
Joined: Thu 26 Nov 2009 22:59

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by bkh »

As I wrote, I think that one should carefully look at the pros and cons of either approach. As of now, I can't really say which is better, but then I don't move layers using the cursor keys very often.

Otoh, when one of the other tools are selected, it's not really necessary, imo, that the cursor keys scroll the document content –I often thought that they could be used for something more useful. But of course, some may love that feature because it fits their workflow.

Yet another thought: why not go the other way and create menu commands/keyboard shortcuts for moving/rotating layers which work independently of the chosen tool?
Herbert123 wrote:Even in a word processor the arrow keys are used to MOVE through the text, not select text - an additional modifier key (shift) is required to do this.
The cursor keys select the next input position. Unlike the scroll bars, it doesn't just move the viewpoint.
Herbert123 wrote: And according to GUI standards: agreed, list views can be NAVIGATED by pressing the cursor keys - but navigating is different from actually selecting those list items. Usually list views require an additional confirmation to select that item, or confirm the action.
No, at least not on OS X. For example, you select a file using the cursor keys, then press "Delete", the (selected!) item will be deleted.
Herbert123 wrote: 1) Change the layer navigation previous and next behaviour in Photoline to browse through the layer stack in order to allow for jumping in and out of groups, which is currently not possible. Perhaps add a key to open a group in the layer panel.
You can assign keys to "Enter group" and "Leave Group". Of course, one command "Previous/Next Layer" for skipping groups and one for steppping through groups would be an alternative. I'd also prefer these commands to stop at the beginning/end of the list instead of cycling through them, but that's a minor issue.
Herbert123 wrote: 3) When the search option is active, we should be able to use the layer navigation keys to browse through the layer stack. Currently this is not possible, and the layer navigation selects layers which are present in the hidden "non-search" state.
That doesn't make sense – these keys go to the content of the document window, and therefore the way they work should reflect what's visible there. If you want to browse through the layer list, input focus has to go there.

Maybe a proper "Find Layer"/"Find Next Layer" function would be preferable to a filtered layer list.

Cheers

Burkhard.