Neue Testversion 19.40b12

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mwenz
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by mwenz »

Er, PDFs are not an exchange format. PDFs were never intended to be opened for editing downstream.

That applications (and their various add-in code libraries) have grown in their ability opening PDFs for editing is fine and all that. But one must always remember that is not the intent of a PDF and one can always find PDFs that nothing can open for editing properly sans Acrobat and its limited editing ability.
Eurgail
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by Eurgail »

mwenz wrote:Er, PDFs are not an exchange format. PDFs were never intended to be opened for editing downstream.

That applications (and their various add-in code libraries) have grown in their ability opening PDFs for editing is fine and all that. But one must always remember that is not the intent of a PDF and one can always find PDFs that nothing can open for editing properly sans Acrobat and its limited editing ability.
Generally, i agree absolutely; especially with mixed content (and that's what PDF is made for) one can have a lot of trouble. But since importing works pretty well in most design applications, the use of PDF has been expanded, so it's really helpful to transfer vector shapes for example (alternative formats are rare).

And with PhotoLine's pretty good PDF import, also mixed content is not very problematic. So you can reuse documents made in other applications pretty good in PhotoLine (of course not with the old workability (effects or filters and the text are more or less fixed or have to be rebuilt for that), but the document is not lost).
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: I could go into the technicalities of why SVG is an extremely useful web format, and fills a number of niches which cannot be filled by other formats, but I feel that I might be unable to convince you.
Right. It's not my intention to debate the relative merits of one format versus another format. I'm just trying to explain why, for me, SVG in PhotoLine has a very low priority. In terms of working with other image formats, I would find it much more useful to be able to work with Illustrator templates like the Avery label templates I cited a while ago.
Ken
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by photoken »

Eurgail wrote: Ai support is a bit problematic, i think. It's a proprietary format based on Postscipt with special Illustrator stuff. So, PhotoLine will never support the full format. Perhaps it is doable to support the basic functions? But is it really neccessary?
Yes, the basic stuff is all that I'm looking for -- not a "necessary" feature for PL, but it would be really nice to be able to take advantage of the AI templates out there. Same is true for being able to use AI symbol sheets, too. Those resources seem to have been made available a while ago, and it's unlikely their authors will re-visit them to provide the images in a more widely supported format such as PDF....
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by Herbert123 »

A number of workflow improvement requests:

1) when selecting multiple layer groups it is not possible to set "Draw Isolated" for all selected groups at once. Only the active layer is affected;
2) when selecting multiple layers/groups, it is still not possible to set layer properties such as label colour, anti-aliasing settings, align pattern, guides, pixel alignment, size, position, scaling, or rotation point simultaneously for all of the selected layers. Only the active layer is affected.

It would be super handy (almost essential, I think) to be able to do this. For most of these properties it makes no sense at all NOT being able to change all the selected layers at once.

For example, I like to use a custom label colour to organize layers - but now I am forced to do this ONE by ONE, which is inconsistent, since we are allowed to change the fill, stroke, and stroke type properties for multiple selected layers in the layer properties panel.

Regularly I want to convert all selected vector layers to bitmap versions. Again, one by one!

Really problematic are the alignment and antialiasing options: I always apply this to groups of selected layers (but not all!). Having to go through the process of selecting each layer individually, and then painstakingly clicking and opening that dropdown menu again, and again, and again, and again.... Well, you catch my drift.

That includes the position, size, scaling, rotation, and skewing: it is extraordinarily handy to transform all selected layers/groups simultaneously as individual elements.

Or converting selected layers to CMYK: again, one by one. Why?

Please! Make it possible to apply all layer properties to multiple selected layers simultaneously. It would save a tremendous amount of time.
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by photoken »

mwenz wrote:Er, PDFs are not an exchange format. PDFs were never intended to be opened for editing downstream.
Point of order: That doesn't square with the ISO paper defining the format:
ISO 15930-3:2002
Graphic technology -- Prepress digital data exchange -- Use of PDF -- Part 3: Complete exchange suitable for colour-managed workflows (PDF/X-3)

Abstract
ISO 15930-3:2002 specifies the use of the Portable Document Format (PDF) for the dissemination of complete digital data, in a single exchange, that contains all elements necessary for final print reproduction. These exchanges will support both colour-managed workflows and traditional CMYK workflows.
The link to the ISO page, from where the complete specification document can be purchased:
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catal ... mber=34941
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
mwenz wrote:Er, PDFs are not an exchange format. PDFs were never intended to be opened for editing downstream.
Point of order: That doesn't square with the ISO paper defining the format:
ISO 15930-3:2002
Graphic technology -- Prepress digital data exchange -- Use of PDF -- Part 3: Complete exchange suitable for colour-managed workflows (PDF/X-3)

Abstract
ISO 15930-3:2002 specifies the use of the Portable Document Format (PDF) for the dissemination of complete digital data, in a single exchange, that contains all elements necessary for final print reproduction. These exchanges will support both colour-managed workflows and traditional CMYK workflows.
The link to the ISO page, from where the complete specification document can be purchased:
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catal ... mber=34941
To be honest, I read that as an exchange format for final print reproduction (as is stated in the heading: "Prepress digital data exchange") between parties (such as between clients and print providers) and as a final file format exchange between print hardware. Not as a file exchange format between applications for further editing. Might be wrong here, though.

Mind, I do realize that many users (and Illustrator through its PDF preview in AI files) use PDF as an exchange format between applications. But as I see it, PDF's main intention from the beginning and onward has always been a packaged file for print production, and to serve as a final document exchange format (and, consequently, not very suitable for editing).
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:Not as a file exchange format between applications for further editing. Might be wrong here, though.
Well, if it's "complete digital data" and contains "all the elements necessary for final print production", by definition that means everything is available for subsequent processing. Print shops will open that PDF with their production software to massage the data for their environment (such as choking, trapping and knockouts), so further editing is not excluded at all.

But, to bring the discussion back to PL and its betas, I want to pick up on a point you and I have both made about the desirability (spelling?) of having vector support for patterns (or textures):

Even if we ignore all external image formats and just consider PL's internal vector drawing capabilities, I find it odd that I can't create a vector pattern within PL and save that pattern for future use as a vector fill for shapes. :?

Perhaps the PL Patterns is not the right place for this (it seems that Patterns is exclusively raster-based), so maybe the Textures area is more proper -- that Textures area defines fills by formulas, after all....
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
bkh
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by bkh »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:Not as a file exchange format between applications for further editing. Might be wrong here, though.
Well, if it's "complete digital data" and contains "all the elements necessary for final print production", by definition that means everything is available for subsequent processing. Print shops will open that PDF with their production software to massage the data for their environment (such as choking, trapping and knockouts), so further editing is not excluded at all.
The PDF file format is meant for exact visual reproduction, but does not necessarily keep the logical structure of the original file. This is most obvious for text, which, in PDF files, is often split into text boxes containing single lines, even single words, to preserve word and interline spacing. Or try searching for a hyphenated word, or changing a text with hyphenation. PDF does not have layer styles or adjustment layers, so these elements must be converted to another visual representation, which means that they cannot be edited any more.

Of course, if you restrict yourself to vector shapes with fixed width borders, PDF will likely work well as an interchange format between editors.

Cheers

Burkhard.
Martin Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by Martin Huber »

maxwell wrote:Toll, wenn es zukünftig möglich wird, Werkzeugeinstellungen abzuspeichern und bei Bedarf zu laden. Neben dem Pinsel ist vor allem der Kopierpinsel eines der Werkzeuge, bei dem abgespeicherte Voreinstellungen das Arbeiten beschleunigen wird. Wäre es prinzipiell möglich auch die genutzte Pinselspitze (Einstellungen unter Pinsel, Pinseleditor) mit abzuspeichern?
Tut er das bei dir nicht? Bei mir speichert der Malpinsel den eingestellten Pinsel mit ab.

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mwenz
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by mwenz »

Ken,

You are reading it / interpreting it incorrectly. The ability to re-expose those presentational elements for editing has gotten better over time. But even that casual fact should say something to you concerning the intent of PDFs--if it were in fact meant for future editing it wouldn't take so blasted long to be able to have the programming libraries in place to get the data into 3rd-party applications for editing at the level they have done.

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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by photoken »

bkh wrote:
photoken wrote: The PDF file format is meant for exact visual reproduction, but does not necessarily keep the logical structure of the original file.
...
PDF does not have layer styles or adjustment layers, so these elements must be converted to another visual representation, which means that they cannot be edited any more.
I don't think there is any image format which will maintain every one of the application-specific editing features of every one of the graphics programs out there. The "other visual representation" of a graphic program's end result can still be edited, of course. Not with the same type of tools and features used by the originating application, but editable nonetheless.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by Herbert123 »

Did something change in RAF (Fuji files) RAW processing? RAF files I import render with pretty bad artifacts along edges of window frames and straight edges. I can't remember that being the case last time I used FUJI files. I tested the same files in RawTherapee, and no issues there.

Test3.raf does not include any straight man-made edges, but exhibits many pinkish/red artifacts, as well as dark pixels.

Here is an example:
Untitled.jpg
And two other examples:
t2.jpg
t3.jpg
Test files for download:
http://www.estructor.altervista.org/links/test1.RAF
http://www.estructor.altervista.org/links/test2.raf
http://www.estructor.altervista.org/links/test3.RAF
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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bkh
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:Did something change in RAF (Fuji files) RAW processing? RAF files I import render with pretty bad artifacts along edges of window frames and straight edges. I can't remember that being the case last time I used FUJI files. I tested the same files in RawTherapee, and no issues there.
Looks like PL isn't performing an xtrans interpolation (instead, there are the usual choices of AHD, VNG, PPG, …). Running your first sample file through dcraw 9.26 seems to work as expected.

Cheers

Burkhard.
maxwell
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b12

Post by maxwell »

Sorry, hatte immer noch den gleichen Pinsel eingestellt, so dass es mir nicht aufgefallen war. Funktioniert alles Bestens!

Nochmals vielen Dank, tolle Erweiterung!!