Neue Testversion 19.40b17

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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: it is already adopted by Pixelmator and a number of other commercial and non-commercial products, as I have pointed out before.
That means nothing with respect to the potential problems I pointed out about using open-source libraries.
Herbert123 wrote: Photoline's tools, while acceptable, are just not capable enough to keep up
123, you keep speaking in vague generalities. I'm not being argumentative for it's own sake, just trying to understand exactly what "improvements" you're talking about. Something like "In program XYZ you can paint a line that looks like this, but not in PL."
Have you downloaded MyPaint or Krita (or even Photoshop) yet, and tried the brushes and the possible settings? The differences are night and day. It is hard to decide where to even start. To anyone who dabbles a bit in MyPaint, it becomes immediately obvious that those painting strokes cannot ever be replicated in Photoline.

A simple brush such as this one is impossible to do in Photoline:
stroke.jpg
This is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg, really.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by photoken »

brush strokes 01.png
Granted, I painted each colour stroke on its own transparent background and applied a Gaussian Blur adjustment layer after the fact to the blue paint, but still....
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Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Herbert123
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
brush strokes 01.png
Granted, I painted each colour stroke on its own transparent background and applied a Gaussian Blur adjustment layer after the fact to the blue paint, but still....
I was afraid you'd do that, and try to emulate this very specific simple example in Photoline... But really: are you proposing we would have to paint EACH single stroke on its own transparent background to create a similar looking effect (and the one I painted in less than one second in ONE movement in MyPaint sill looks way better and more refined?).

Remember, this is merely one of a multitude of other examples I could give you how the MyPaint brush engine outpaces Photoline's bitmap painting and drawing tools. I am sorry, but I feel you proved my point that it would be good to have an update to Photoline's painting tools. Everyone who uses Photoline will benefit.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:I was afraid you'd do that, and try to emulate this very specific simple example in Photoline...
So, I was able to create the same painting effect in PL. (One of the advantages of using a Gaussian Blur adjustment layer is that the amount of blur can be changed later, at will.)

If you would like to request specific additional features, by all means do so. That way we could all weigh in regarding things such as blur controls, etc., and let the developers decide the best way to implement them. But over-generalized assertions do little to improve the product, IMO.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by photoken »

Martin Huber wrote:
photoken wrote:However, there are bizarre problems when using a single vector line as the pattern. Rotating the pattern causes the vector lines to become blurred, or become a strange "chunky" vector effect, or disappear entirely -- all depending on the angle of rotation. A little more work is needed for this case. When the vector pattern is a shape, things work really well.
Can you send us a small sample document (just a vector shape with a problematic pattern)?

Martin
Sure. Here are a couple of screenshots showing the strange behaviour of the vector line fill:
vector pattern 01.png
vector pattern 02.png
The pattern was created by copying the vertical line in the document.

This zip file contains both the PLD file and the pattern used for the fill:
vector pattern.zip
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Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:I was afraid you'd do that, and try to emulate this very specific simple example in Photoline...
So, I was able to create the same painting effect in PL. (One of the advantages of using a Gaussian Blur adjustment layer is that the amount of blur can be changed later, at will.)

If you would like to request specific additional features, by all means do so. That way we could all weigh in regarding things such as blur controls, etc., and let the developers decide the best way to implement them. But over-generalized assertions do little to improve the product, IMO.
Anyone can see that your example is quite different compared to the one in MyPaint. And you were unable to create it by drawing one stroke. It is not a feasible solution for a user wishing to paint with more finesse in Photoline.

Anyway, that superficial example is a very simple one. If you are unable to reproduce the same paint effect even with all that additional effort, you have proven my point, I feel. And that was just ONE basic brush sample - I could give you multitudes more examples.

How can you enter this discussion without a good understanding of the paint engines in other software? I have worked with most of them, and while I like Photoline's basic brush engine, the fact remains it is outdated compared to just about any other competing product on the market.

I am just interested in seeing the weaker areas of Photoline strengthened, so it can hold its own in the market. That is all. A good brush engine is a fundamental part of any digital image editor nowadays. Digital painting is done in Photoshop, in MyPaint, in Krita, in Painter, in Gimp, and in other software. I attempted to achieve similar quality in Photoline, but the brush engine is much too basic in comparison. Heck, even the old Fireworks offers more options. These are facts, and I think it is an essential area to improve - it will also benefit everyone else who works in Photoline: from retouching to compositing to painting to painting masks.

I love working in Photoline, and it would be good if Photoline users would gain access to modernized painting tools. If you require specifics, test other software. It becomes very obvious then. The reason why I avoid listing specific additional painting features, is because the list would grow very, very long. And there is no real point: MyPaint and Krita are free downloads, and their brush engines can be directly compared with Photoline's brush engine.

That is all I have to say on the matter. I am going to rest now for the night.
(All of the above was said in a loving tone :) )
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: Anyone can see that your example is quite different compared to the one in MyPaint.
It's so similar that the differences are meaningless. Spending a little more time experimenting would make it look even more like your example.
Herbert123 wrote:It is not a feasible solution for a user wishing to paint with more finesse in Photoline.
Of course it is. In fact, using a Gaussian Blur adjustment layer, as I did, gives much more control and "finesse" because you can mask it to apply various amounts of the blur to very precise parts of the same paint stroke.
Herbert123 wrote:Anyway, that superficial example is a very simple one.
But it's the only example you were able to provide (after being repeatedly asked to prove your point); and is something you claimed was "impossible" to do in PL, which I proved wrong.
Herbert123 wrote:How can you enter this discussion without a good understanding of the paint engines in other software?
Engine, schmingine. I prefer not to obscure discussions with buzzwords. Rather, I think it's more useful to speak in specific terms such as "I'd like to be able to have a paint stroke that does this:".
Herbert123 wrote: I think it is an essential area to improve - it will also benefit everyone else who works in Photoline: from retouching to compositing to painting to painting masks.
Not really. As I understand what you would like to see, it's having painting tools that emulate "natural media" effects. That's a valid request (see my next comment), but I don't see how natural media capabilities would provide substantial benefit for retouching, compositing, or masking beyond what PL can do now.
Herbert123 wrote:The reason why I avoid listing specific additional painting features, is because the list would grow very, very long.
Well, you've listed those additional painting features before:
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... dia#p37391
and I've essentially agreed with you about them:
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... dia#p37404

Like I said in that previous discussion, for creating paintings the two areas of "natural media" effects I think PL is lacking are watercolours and oil paints. I tend to think that would require a special "Artistic Media" layer and painting tools (as PSP does) because that is a very understandable way to control "wetness" and "drying time", but maybe the developers will prove me wrong about that.

So, the bottom line is that I'd like to see at least two new painting tools/methods, but they're in the category of "nice to have", not "essential", IMO.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by bkh »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:The reason why I avoid listing specific additional painting features, is because the list would grow very, very long.
Well, you've listed those additional painting features before:
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... dia#p37391
If that's the list, then I think that PL doesn't even need a new brush engine (I also tried Krita and GIMP, and it seems that the underlying brush engine is very similar to PL's). In a sense, PL has flow vs. opacity – it's in the "paint only once" option in the preferences. At the moment, you can't mix both effects, but I don't see why this couldn't be done with what's already there. Also, PL has "wet paint" options (Finger and Water tools), but these tools don't add colour yet (the finger tool can add colour at the beginning of a stroke, but that doesn't seem enough). Modifying these tools to add colour shouldn't be difficult, imo. Granted, this isn't the same as simulating real oil/acryllic or water colour, but simulating real paint media is a different story altogether.

But the most important point would be about designing a new GUI to map user input (various tablet paramters, stroke length, drawing speed) to the various brush settings – here a new brush engine doesn't help at all because PL's brush engine already allows for variation along the brush stroke. I think that it would make sense to have brush dynamics added to brushes, rather than to have pen tablet settings for the individual tools.

Cheers

Burkhard.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Falaffel »

Sind bei der Freien Anordnung in der Bildübersicht noch neue Funktionen hinzugekommen?
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Gerhard Huber »

Falaffel wrote:Sind bei der Freien Anordnung in der Bildübersicht noch neue Funktionen hinzugekommen?
nein, aber jetzt sollte es funktionieren. Fehlt denn noch etwas?
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Falaffel »

Burkhard hatte im Thema einer der letzten Betaversionen noch ein zwei Vorschläge. Ich finde das aber gerade spontan nicht.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Herbert123 »

Ken, have you loaded up MyPaint or Krita yet, and compared with Photoline? As far as I can tell, you have never painted digitally before (I could be wrong, of course).

And no artist in his or her right mind would ever be forced in working with multiple layers, and gaussian blur adjustment layers to paint a single stroke. That is a preposterous proposition (sorry). The reason why I cannot easily give you specifics, is because the difference between those other applications and Photoline is just VAST.

Let's just list the options for brush options in Photoline;
- Outer and inner radius
- roundness
- angle/slant
- follow direction
- jitter: position, size, angle, and colour
- steps

- shapes: circle and square. Curve to control the density of the shape.
- bitmaps can be loaded for custom brush shapes.

- Size, intensity, and colour are the only ones pressure controllable.
- drawing in different blend mode.
- drawing with pattern, texture, gradient, solid colour.
- Drawing tools: brush (painting), pencil, chalk, coal.
- Drawing adjustment tools: finger, water, filter brush replace colour brush.
- Coloured (stamp) brushes tool.
I think these, more or less, cover the bases in Photoline.

Other apps (Photoshop, MyPaint, Krita, Gimp)
All of the above is available in these four applications as well.

Just about every parameter is Wacom pressure controllable. Wacom tilt, wheel, and rotation are supported. The sensitivity can be controlled as well - often with custom curves. Any parameter can be controlled with velocity or set to random (with range parameters).
Fading of a brush stroke is possible.
Flow and opacity are separately controllable (an essential parameter).
Shape and shape dynamics are available in all four.
Previews of the brush in action.

Smudging and blending are integrated in the brush controls. No need for a separate finger paint tool. This means endless variations of blend and smudge tools are possible.

Gimp:
Gimp is great in this department, especially now that the MyPaint brush engine has been integrated. Gimp can paint with full colour brushes. What is nice is that these are integrated in the regular brush palette.
gimp.jpg
Photoshop:
Very good, with loads of control. Not as much as in MyPaint and Krita, though. Krita wipes the floor with Photoshop in this department. Far more control. Even Gimp offers more control now.
ph_small.jpg
MyPaint:
Many controls again. Each category opens the same parameters on the right, and each can have a custom control curve.
Interestingly enough the last brush stroke the user made updates in real time when changes are made to the settings.
mypaint.jpg
Krita:
This is an unfair comparison. Krita was developed as a dedicated professional digital painting application, and obviously almost nothing else can keep up (excepting applications such as Corel Painter). Here is a screenshot. Each main category has subcategories, and each subcategory provides access to a plethora of other options and settings.

Suffice to say, I do not expect such a level of control. If the difference between MyPaint/Gimp/Photoshop and Photoline is vast, I'd say the distance between Krita and PL is countable in light years.

Ken, is this specific enough for you? Even the MyPaint brush engine completely outpaces the one in Photoline. Just from the point of view of Wacom controls, there is hardly any comparison.

Again, Photoline is absolutely on par with the best out there in regards to image editing. The painting tools really deserve an update - the level of control even in free applications are just leagues ahead. I wish it weren't so, but that is the reality.

That is why I am saying, if you can't beat them: join them. Why do you guys think the MyPaint brush engine was adopted in that many products, both commercial, free and open source? The groundwork is done. Why re-invent the wheel?
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Herbert123 »

Screenshot of Krita's brush controls (just one screen of many). (Upload only allowed up to three images)
Krita.jpg
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:The reason why I avoid listing specific additional painting features, is because the list would grow very, very long.
Well, you've listed those additional painting features before:
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... dia#p37391
If that's the list, then I think that PL doesn't even need a new brush engine (I also tried Krita and GIMP, and it seems that the underlying brush engine is very similar to PL's). In a sense, PL has flow vs. opacity – it's in the "paint only once" option in the preferences. At the moment, you can't mix both effects, but I don't see why this couldn't be done with what's already there. Also, PL has "wet paint" options (Finger and Water tools), but these tools don't add colour yet (the finger tool can add colour at the beginning of a stroke, but that doesn't seem enough). Modifying these tools to add colour shouldn't be difficult, imo. Granted, this isn't the same as simulating real oil/acryllic or water colour, but simulating real paint media is a different story altogether.

But the most important point would be about designing a new GUI to map user input (various tablet paramters, stroke length, drawing speed) to the various brush settings – here a new brush engine doesn't help at all because PL's brush engine already allows for variation along the brush stroke. I think that it would make sense to have brush dynamics added to brushes, rather than to have pen tablet settings for the individual tools.

Cheers

Burkhard.
That was a Pixelmator screen I posted at the time, I believe. MyPaint engine, of course.

Burkhard, I think any improvements at this point would be great to have. I concur that many tools could probably be combined, as you say. No need for all those individual tools when one paint tool could potentially group it all together, with full tablet parameter support, and brush/shape dynamics. Flow/opacity controls are very important as well, and should be readily accessible.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b17

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: Ken, is this specific enough for you?
Yes, in a way. Thanks for going to the trouble of posting the screenshots of the brush options for those programs. (I suspect the brush options for Painter would be equally informative.)

It all comes back to my original question: Why implement such things?

A user can certainly make requests like "I want all the painting stuff just like it's in Painter.", or "I want all the vector stuff just like it's in Illustrator." The response to such requests is, of course, "OK, but which of those things do you really use, and how would having all those things in PhotoLine be better than using those programs as external applications?"

The unspoken question is "Does it make sense for PL to chase after dedicated painting programs, or dedicated vector programs, endlessly playing catch up?"

That's why I'm not denying the wonderfullness of the painting tools in dedicated painting apps. I'm just wondering if it doesn't make more sense for PL to thoughtfully analyze some of those options and wisely choose only the ones that can substantially help PL become a nice, well-rounded program.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.