Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
Eurgail
Mitglied
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun 06 Jul 2014 23:02

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Eurgail »

Sollte eigentlich in dieser Version die Ligaturenfunktion auch unter Windows funktionieren? Bei mir läuft sie noch nicht wie erwartet.
User avatar
Gerhard Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3990
Joined: Mon 18 Nov 2002 15:30
Location: Bad Gögging

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Gerhard Huber »

Eurgail wrote:Sollte eigentlich in dieser Version die Ligaturenfunktion auch unter Windows funktionieren? Bei mir läuft sie noch nicht wie erwartet.
geht nicht und wir arbeiten daran nicht, weil der Aufwand zu hoch wäre.
Ralf
Mitglied
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu 24 Jan 2008 13:49

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Ralf »

Gerhard Huber wrote:
Eurgail wrote:Sollte eigentlich in dieser Version die Ligaturenfunktion auch unter Windows funktionieren? Bei mir läuft sie noch nicht wie erwartet.
geht nicht und wir arbeiten daran nicht, weil der Aufwand zu hoch wäre.
Schade.
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

Gerhard Huber wrote:
Eurgail wrote:Sollte eigentlich in dieser Version die Ligaturenfunktion auch unter Windows funktionieren? Bei mir läuft sie noch nicht wie erwartet.
geht nicht und wir arbeiten daran nicht, weil der Aufwand zu hoch wäre.
It is true, unless the operating system supports OpenType properly, it is a huge task to code complete OpenType support in an application all by yourself.

I do have one request which will make it easier to work with ligatures and non-spaced languages: could you please add a "insert word joiner" option in the text menu? This will make it possible to surpress the automatic ligatures in Windows.

I tried to come up with a reasonably simple method to do this through an external utility, but it just either refuses to work, or was too much of a hassle to make it work.

http://www.marathon-studios.com/unicode ... ord_Joiner

In InDesign they call this a "Non-Joiner" character. This is quite important to have. For example, selfish and starfish: in the first instance there should be no ligature used to replace the fi. In the second case it is correct to replace the fi with a ligature.

With a simple "insert non-joiner" option this would be easily solved.


Alternatively, the zero-width space could be used as well. But that takes additional kerning changes to make it work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-width_space
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

Ralf wrote:
Gerhard Huber wrote:
Eurgail wrote:Sollte eigentlich in dieser Version die Ligaturenfunktion auch unter Windows funktionieren? Bei mir läuft sie noch nicht wie erwartet.
geht nicht und wir arbeiten daran nicht, weil der Aufwand zu hoch wäre.
Schade.
To suppress ligatures, download this utility:
http://www.fileformat.info/tool/unicodeinput/



Run it.

For example, type T

and press <ALT> <NUMPAD +>

Then type the code 200b (zero-width space)
Send it. Then type the h character. No ligature!
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

Herbert123 wrote:
Gerhard Huber wrote:
Eurgail wrote:Sollte eigentlich in dieser Version die Ligaturenfunktion auch unter Windows funktionieren? Bei mir läuft sie noch nicht wie erwartet.
geht nicht und wir arbeiten daran nicht, weil der Aufwand zu hoch wäre.
It is true, unless the operating system supports OpenType properly, it is a huge task to code complete OpenType support in an application all by yourself.

I do have one request which will make it easier to work with ligatures and non-spaced languages: could you please add a "insert word joiner" option in the text menu? This will make it possible to surpress the automatic ligatures in Windows.

I tried to come up with a reasonably simple method to do this through an external utility, but it just either refuses to work, or was too much of a hassle to make it work.

http://www.marathon-studios.com/unicode ... ord_Joiner

In InDesign they call this a "Non-Joiner" character. This is quite important to have. For example, selfish and starfish: in the first instance there should be no ligature used to replace the fi. In the second case it is correct to replace the fi with a ligature.

With a simple "insert non-joiner" option this would be easily solved.


Alternatively, the zero-width space could be used. But that seems to be the old-fashioned approach - it does work for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-width_space
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Eurgail
Mitglied
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun 06 Jul 2014 23:02

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Eurgail »

Sounds like pretty good alternatives Herbert! :-) Perhaps something like this will be implemented soon!
Gerhard Huber wrote:geht nicht und wir arbeiten daran nicht, weil der Aufwand zu hoch wäre.
Alles klar, wollte nur fragen, falls es schlicht übersehen wurde. Vielleicht bringt Herberts Vorschlag hier eine einfache Teillösung. Ich persönlich finde eine solche Funktion nützlich, aber nicht überlebensnotwendig. :-) Notfalls kann man das ja auch übers Kerning erzeugen, wenn man es unbedingt braucht.
Und vielen Dank übrigens für die schnelle Antwort am Samstag Abend! :-)
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: To suppress ligatures, download this utility:
No need to download and run an ancient utility.

The technique is a little bit tedious, but works just fine in Win7:
  1. Open the Character Map utility.
  2. Choose the Group by "Unicode subrange" and select the "General Punctuation" subrange:
    charmap unicode 04.jpg
  3. Select and copy the "Zero Width Non-Joiner" item (it's one of the empty boxes).
  4. Type your complete word.
  5. Place your cursor after the ligature and hit the Backspace key to delete the ligature.
  6. Type the first character again.
  7. Paste in the zero-width non-joiner character. The word will be split into two lines.
  8. Hit the Backspace key once to join the word.
  9. Type in the second character again.
The top sample shows the result of using this technique, and the bottom sample shows the original ligature:
unicode resut.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

Hey Ken,

Yes, I am aware of the character map, and I tried to use it as well, but it just takes too many steps - for one or two ligatures not that much of a problem, but with tens of instances it becomes rather cumbersome.

I chose that small utility instead because of its speed. It also remembers the last used Unicode character. Type the first character, <alt><numpad +>, <tab>, <enter>. It is pretty quick.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:but with tens of instances it becomes rather cumbersome.
I don't think it will be needed that often. After all, it's only necessary when a paragraph of text is justified; and the rare time a ligature needs to be split to enhance the justification, inserting the cursor in the word and pasting the non-joining character isn't that onerous.

But, you know, your suggestion of having the capability in PL of inserting that character got me to thinking: the settings panel for the Text tool certainly has room for another tab -- "Special Characters". That tab's panel could have an unlimited entry field similar to the one used for the External Programs, where we could add our most-used special characters: typographer's quotes, the non-joining space, etc., etc. Sound interesting?
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
User avatar
Hoogo
Betatester
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun 03 Jul 2005 13:35
Location: Mülheim/Ruhr

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Hoogo »

I think you have to be a typographer to appreciate that. To me "list of favorite characters" sounds like madness :lol:
----------------
Herr Doktor, ich bin mir ganz sicher, ich habe Atom! /Doctor, doctor, I'm sure, I've got atoms!
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Herbert123 »

That's funny - I was thinking along similar lines this afternoon: some kind of customizable menu would be great. Your idea sounds like an excellent addition: we'd be able to add any special character used in our workflows.

Hoogo: not really: I run into this issue almost every week. I design mockups for web and mobile in Photoline, and having access to a tab where we could store special characters would actually be an enormously helpful addition.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:we'd be able to add any special character used in our workflows.
Yes, it's absolutely important that the list be easily customizable. Some users would need a lot of specialized typographical characters, other users would need a lot of specialized mathematical entities, etc.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
Eurgail
Mitglied
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun 06 Jul 2014 23:02

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Eurgail »

Kleine Fehlfunktion: Beim PDF-Export mit stufenloser Transparenz werden Verläufe mit Transparenz falsch ausgegeben. Ist leicht nachzustellen, ansonsten reiche ich gerne noch ein Beispieldokument nach.
Betrifft beide aktuellen Versionen.
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 19.90b1

Post by Martin Huber »

Eurgail wrote:Kleine Fehlfunktion: Beim PDF-Export mit stufenloser Transparenz werden Verläufe mit Transparenz falsch ausgegeben. Ist leicht nachzustellen, ansonsten reiche ich gerne noch ein Beispieldokument nach.
Ja, mach das. Ein kleines Testdokument von mir zeigte keine Probleme.

Martin