Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:I am trying to combine a 1200ppi monochrome b&w scan with a coloured 300ppi CMYK layer, and output as a PDF that retains the 1200ppi monochrome b&w layer for print.
I've tried something like this (CMYK document, CMYK layer, monochrome layer in multiply mode), and PL retains the 1200 ppi layer in a 300 ppi PL document. Do you have a small crop as a sample PL document? What PDF export options do you use?
Herbert123 wrote: 4) This new monochrome layer will be too large due to a missing ppi option in the new layer dialog. Next, I change the layer's ppi resolution to 1200 in the layer properties. This scales the layer exactly to the document size. (3)

5) I place the scanned 1200ppi b&w artwork in the monochrome layer.
If you paste the 1200 ppi artwork into PL directly, it will be scaled according to its resolution. Anyway, if I need a new layer in higher resolution, I create a normal layer first, then use "Scale Layer" in "Resolution" mode. Not sure if one needs the resolution option in the New Layer dialogue (it's even missing in the "New Document" dialogue).
Herbert123 wrote: (1) PhotoLine has no built-in bleed options to display or create bleeds automatically. I run into this problem again and again. This means I must account for the bleeds myself - I achieve that by creating a guide preset that calculates an inside bleed of 1/8 inch. Not that friendly for users who just need a quick bleed setting and bleed view setup.
Why don't you use the bleed settings in Preferences -> File -> PDF? I don't exactly remember if there's a way to display the bleed box in PL, though.

Cheers

Burkhard.
Thanks Burkhard - PhotoLine has no issues combining the two layers, but exporting to PDF and retaining a separate high resolution monochrome layer is the issue for me. I also used multiply to blend the high resolution layer, but blending rasterizes and re-samples the monochrome layer and mixes it with the lower resolution layer when output to the pdf.

And yes, it is correct that a ppi value setting is missing in both the new document dialog and the new layer dialog. It would save time if that option would be added in both dialogs.

I do use the bleed option in the PDF settings. The trouble is that PhotoLine does not offer a way to display the bleed frame while we are working on a layout. That is why I (and Ken) have created a guides preset that creates four 1/8 inch bleed guides.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Michael Roek-Ramirez
Betatester
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 16:16
Location: Darmstadt/Puebla/Shanghai

Textumfluss

Post by Michael Roek-Ramirez »

Problem bei Textumfluss (War auch bei Vorversionen so):

[attachment=0]PLumbruch.jpg[/attachment]


Gruss
Michael
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:I am trying to combine a 1200ppi monochrome b&w scan with a coloured 300ppi CMYK layer, and output as a PDF that retains the 1200ppi monochrome b&w layer for print.

This is done for comic printing: the top 1200ppi monochrome layer is the scanned line art, and the 300ppi layer beneath it is the colouring layer. When printed, the 1200ppi b&w layer is then overprinted with black at that 1bit resolution.

But when I try to achieve this in Photoline, the PDF export resamples the 1200ppi layer. I suppose this is because PhotoLine merges the layers.

How do I set this up in PhotoLine so that it is pre-press ready?
That's not really easy. A prepress ready PDF usually means PDF/X1a or PDF/X3. Both formats don't support transparency or blend modes.
If you just place the bitmap image over your CMYK image and activate "Overprint" for the bitmap, it will overwrite the complete K-channel because of the way overprinting works in PDF.

There is one solution, but sadly it is not supported in PhotoLine (I tried to implement it today). Before I said that PDF/X1a or PDF/X3 don't support transparency. That isn't fully correct: It does support 1-bit transparency. So a completely black 1-bit image with your outlines bitmap as alpha channel and with overprint activated should work in theory. But as soon as there is a single pixel with a transparency other than 0 or 255, it won't work anymore, which makes this solution not really user friendly.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Textumfluss

Post by Martin Huber »

Michael Roek-Ramirez wrote:Problem bei Textumfluss (War auch bei Vorversionen so):
Das Problem kann ich nicht nachvollziehen, aber ich habe eine Vermutung: Du gibst auch die Leerzeichen mit gedückter Shift-Taste ein. In dem Fall erzeugt PhotoLine feste Leerzeichen, an denen nicht umgebrochen wird. Und wenn der Text so lange wird, dass er nirgendwo Platz hat, schaltet PhotoLine irgendwann von Wortumbruch auf Zeichenumbruch um.

Martin
bkh
Betatester
Posts: 3661
Joined: Thu 26 Nov 2009 22:59

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:PhotoLine has no issues combining the two layers, but exporting to PDF and retaining a separate high resolution monochrome layer is the issue for me. I also used multiply to blend the high resolution layer, but blending rasterizes and re-samples the monochrome layer and mixes it with the lower resolution layer when output to the pdf.
As Martin explained, there is a problem when you use PDF/X1a or PDF/X3 (because of the missing blend modes). However, it works if you use ordinary PDF.

But if you use a monochrome layer with transparency in "Normal" layer mode for the black lines, PL retains the high resolution layer in PDF/X1a and PDF/X3 modes if you set transparency handling to "Threshold".

See the attached sample files. (I can't attach a PDF/X… file because the icc profile is too large).

Cheers

Burkhard.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by Martin Huber »

Paul wrote:Some things with Shape Tools:
'Distort wavy' is shown on the preview, but when pressing OK the effect disappears. The dynamic mask stays. I have then the Animation ON. With OFF it works fine.
Animations don't work in combination with placeholders and dynamic filters. I will disable the controls in this situation.
Paul wrote:Also, when changing it from 'Inside' to 'Clipping' or 'Outside', the original undistorted image is shown behind the wavy image.
The dynamic filter doesn't replace the placeholder (unless you choose the blend mode "Replace"), because you can change the intensity of the filter or choose a different blend mode.
Paul wrote:Also, when I apply the effect 'Vault', this works fine, but after dragging another image onto the placeholder frame, the effect has disappeared.
Strange, it works fine here. Do you have a small sample document to reproduce that.
Paul wrote:And, when I choose 'Clipping' of the image in the placeholder, and I turn on 'Clipping' (blurring the edges) onto the clipping vector-mask, the blur extends outside of the clipping area. Applying blurring the borders of a clipping mask to a normal image just takes it inside the clipping area, as expected.
The clipping on placeholder should behave the same as clipping on any other layer type (and it does so here).

You can get an inside-shrinking clipping by filling the clipping layer with white and applying the layer style "Glow inside" with black to it.
Paul wrote:When I apply a Shape tool to a placeholder and then choose to change to clip the image, or put it inside or outside, the effect is often lost. The Shape tool mask remains. Doubleclicking and 'OK' on the mask puts it right again.
Can you send us a small sample document with the state before changing to clip/inside/outside? And where are you double-clicking exactly?
Paul wrote:I guess the transformations under the Distort menu (like Free Roughen) do not work (yet)?
No, there are currently no plans to do that. The dynamic filters are pixel-based, but the distortions like Free Roughen are vector-based.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:I double-clicked by accident on a fill in the layer panel.
I like your enthusiastic post, but I didn't understand where you clicked exactly and what happened after clicking :-)

Martin
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by Herbert123 »

Martin Huber wrote:
Herbert123 wrote:I double-clicked by accident on a fill in the layer panel.
I like your enthusiastic post, but I didn't understand where you clicked exactly and what happened after clicking :-)

Martin
This!
multiple fills and strokes.jpg
I was never aware that PhotoLine actually supported multiple stacked fills and strokes! Illustrator can do that, and I was gobsmacked when I discovered it by accident in PhotoLine when I tried to double-click the fill field, but hit the word "Vector" instead. I never knew! :shock:

As a future feature request it would be awesome if both opacity and blend mode for each one could be controlled as well similar to Illustrator.
Still, it is a rather nice surprise!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by Herbert123 »

Martin Huber wrote: That's not really easy. A prepress ready PDF usually means PDF/X1a or PDF/X3. Both formats don't support transparency or blend modes.
If you just place the bitmap image over your CMYK image and activate "Overprint" for the bitmap, it will overwrite the complete K-channel because of the way overprinting works in PDF.

There is one solution, but sadly it is not supported in PhotoLine (I tried to implement it today). Before I said that PDF/X1a or PDF/X3 don't support transparency. That isn't fully correct: It does support 1-bit transparency. So a completely black 1-bit image with your outlines bitmap as alpha channel and with overprint activated should work in theory. But as soon as there is a single pixel with a transparency other than 0 or 255, it won't work anymore, which makes this solution not really user friendly.

Martin
Thanks Martin for looking into this.

That sounds good enough to me. This type of prepress work requires knowledge of prepress work anyway. But perhaps a checkbox in the monochrome layer properties can fix this? Just a suggestion. It also seems that Burkhard's method accomplishes the same result?

I am also wondering if it could be possible to assign a spot colour to the monochrome layer just like the grayscale layer. It would allow precise control for high-resolution bitmap spot colours. With the overprint option, of course :-)

Aside from this, would it be possible to add a PPI field to the new layer field? This makes it simpler to work with PPI in a document.
bkh wrote: As Martin explained, there is a problem when you use PDF/X1a or PDF/X3 (because of the missing blend modes). However, it works if you use ordinary PDF.

But if you use a monochrome layer with transparency in "Normal" layer mode for the black lines, PL retains the high resolution layer in PDF/X1a and PDF/X3 modes if you set transparency handling to "Threshold".

See the attached sample files. (I can't attach a PDF/X… file because the icc profile is too large).

Cheers

Burkhard.
Wow, Burkhard: it worked! Thanks. Acrobat Pro anti-aliases the preview (I tried to turn that off in the prefs, but it has no effect) which adds a visual white outline to the monochrome layer - but in both PDF Exchange Viewer and when I open the PDF in Photoline it seems to work fine.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
User avatar
photoken
Mitglied
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: I was never aware that PhotoLine actually supported multiple stacked fills and strokes!
Yep. I've used that feature to apply different colours/gradients to the fill and line of vector objects and it's a great way to get blended effects to be independently applied to vector objects. As a bonus, it keeps the Layers panel wonderfully simple. :wink:

By the way, if you experiment with using multiple gradient fills for a vector object, you can use transparency as one of the colour stops to achieve a measure of "3D" shading on the object. It's not as versatile as having a Mesh Gradient tool, but can be useful in some situations.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 20.00b3

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: I was never aware that PhotoLine actually supported multiple stacked fills and strokes!
Yep. I've used that feature to apply different colours/gradients to the fill and line of vector objects and it's a great way to get blended effects to be independently applied to vector objects. As a bonus, it keeps the Layers panel wonderfully simple. :wink:

By the way, if you experiment with using multiple gradient fills for a vector object, you can use transparency as one of the colour stops to achieve a measure of "3D" shading on the object. It's not as versatile as having a Mesh Gradient tool, but can be useful in some situations.
Yes, one of the first things I did is playing around with alpha and transparency in fills and gradients. Transparency can be built into a pattern, but blend modes unfortunately are not supported (yet?). I hope blend mode support will be added at some point as well.

Man, I can't believe I never noticed this option before. Back when I still used Illustrator, I made prolific use of multiple fills and strokes! Anyway, never presume to know everything :-)
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Michael Roek-Ramirez
Betatester
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 16:16
Location: Darmstadt/Puebla/Shanghai

Re: Textumfluss

Post by Michael Roek-Ramirez »

[quote="Martin Huber"]Das Problem kann ich nicht nachvollziehen, aber ich habe eine Vermutung: Du gibst auch die Leerzeichen mit gedückter Shift-Taste ein.[/quote]

Nein, ich tue nichts dergleichen. Ich schreibe wie immer.
Meine weiteren Schritte:
1. Abhängig von Textfont?
-> Nein, passiert mit drei verschiedenen Fonts
2. Passiert durch OS (Ubuntu + WINE)
-> Nein, passiert auch bei nativer 64Bit WIN10 Installation!

Eine Testdatei ist hier erhältlich (konnte ich wegen 2MB Grösse nicht hochladen:
http://www.ecotec2000.de/umflusstest.pld

Muss irgendwie mit Gruppierung zu tun haben..... wenn ich ein einfaches Bild und einen einfachen Text benutze, passiert das nicht!

Gruss
Michael
bkh
Betatester
Posts: 3661
Joined: Thu 26 Nov 2009 22:59

Re: Textumfluss

Post by bkh »

Michael Roek-Ramirez wrote:Eine Testdatei ist hier erhältlich (konnte ich wegen 2MB Grösse nicht hochladen:
http://www.ecotec2000.de/umflusstest.pld
Ich habe mal den Text in ein anderes Programm kopiert und mir die Codes angeschaut: zwischen den Großbuchstaben sind non-break spaces, keine normalen Leerzeichen. Die OS X-Version von PL macht übrigens gar keine Umbrüche, sondern der Text geht erst nach der zu umfließenden Ebene weiter. Wenn ich die non-break-spaces durch normale Leerzeichen ersetze, funktioniert der Textumfluss mit deiner Testdatei normal.

L.G.

Burkhard.
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Black Overprint in PDF

Post by Martin Huber »

Herbert123 wrote:That sounds good enough to me. This type of prepress work requires knowledge of prepress work anyway. But perhaps a checkbox in the monochrome layer properties can fix this? Just a suggestion. It also seems that Burkhard's method accomplishes the same result?
Burkhard's solution works fine, but it doesn't allow PDF overprint (only overwriting the K channel), simply because PhotoLine doesn't show the overprint controls for images with transparency.
Herbert123 wrote:I am also wondering if it could be possible to assign a spot colour to the monochrome layer just like the grayscale layer. It would allow precise control for high-resolution bitmap spot colours. With the overprint option, of course :-)
I already changed that.
Herbert123 wrote:Aside from this, would it be possible to add a PPI field to the new layer field? This makes it simpler to work with PPI in a document.
This "New Layer" dialog is here for 3 years now, and this is the first time, that I read a complaint about the missing dpi field (at least I don't remember :) ). Aside from that, I don't see the benefit of the dpi field. In the past (with the dpi field) a lot of people had problems understanding the correlation of the pixel size, the dpi value and the physical size of the layer. This, and the fact that most new layers will have the same dpi value as the background layer, let me doubt, that a dpi field is really needed. Those who understand the correlation can easily switch the dpi value or the physical size after creating the new layer using the layer attributes.

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Multiple vector styles

Post by Martin Huber »

photoken wrote:
Herbert123 wrote: I was never aware that PhotoLine actually supported multiple stacked fills and strokes!
Yep. I've used that feature to apply different colours/gradients to the fill and line of vector objects and it's a great way to get blended effects to be independently applied to vector objects. As a bonus, it keeps the Layers panel wonderfully simple. :wink:
It is useful for drawing streets and train tracks in maps, too.

Martin