Once more: Linux?

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der_fotograf
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by der_fotograf »

It's funny - there is a Linux discussion going on in another forum for another software as well.

Linux? I wouldn't invest a single dime into the development of an app for this OS. Ahem - which OS? The real Linux problem is that there are too many 'distros'. If they all would unite and put their effort into one single Linux OS, it would be an OS appealing a bit more to developers of commercial (proprietary) software.

By the way: Several years ago Xara faced the same request, and they delivered. However, soon after the release of the Linux version it was clear that hardly anyone was interested in it. So Xara stopped the expensive adventure.

My guess: The same story would happen to PL.

Please, before you think you have to convince me or tell me about the good Linux stuff, hold your breath: I am using Linux for more than a decade by now, but definitely not for any image editing or design.

Recommendation: If you want to use PL, just invest into a Mac or a cheap PC. It is simple as that.
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
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Michael Roek-Ramirez
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Michael Roek-Ramirez »

Hi:
>So Xara stopped the expensive adventure<
I think it does not make much sense to list software packages. I just named to opposit examples. myBase and QnEWB. Using a common framework makes it easy to develop cross-platform.

>My guess: The same story would happen to PL.
YOUR guess!

>If you want to use PL, just invest into a Mac or a cheap PC.
I would not allow a software to define which and how many machines I will have to use/take with me ;-)

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Michael
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der_fotograf
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by der_fotograf »

Not my guess, just a logical development. Just look how the interest in new versions drastically dropped when the competitor released his Windows version of the 16 bit image editor last year:
Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 12.09.28.jpg
Now imagine what would happen to a Linux version :mrgreen:

In short words: We can be lucky if PL will survive the next 3 years. There is no niche for a Linux version (besides the bare fact that there won't be enough funds to finance the port)
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Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]
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Christopher
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Christopher »

Hello,

What this is for graphics and where from it comes
Gruss Christopher

IMatch zur Bilderverwaltung, Capture One und DxO PhotoLab
als RAW-Converter und PhotoLine (x64) zur Bildbearbeitung.
Es geht auch sehr gut ohne Abobe Produkte und Adobe's Abomodell.
Betriebssystem Windows 11 22H2
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by der_fotograf »

I took the data from this page:

viewforum.php?f=5&sid=718ff54066217afd6d0d64dc8e711551

PhotoLine -> Ankündigungen - Hinweise rund um PhotoLine

and threw them into a spread sheet.

You will find all version numbers, release dates and viewers there.
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]
Michael Roek-Ramirez
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Michael Roek-Ramirez »

Nice try!
Take the forum message accesses as sales number?
Check with Hubers better.
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Michael
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by der_fotograf »

Excuse me Sir: I didn't say a word about sales. Just about interest. Big difference in the meaning and definition.

And the interest dropped - that is a bare fact.

What happens to a product life cycle if the interest declines? Remember good ol' days in University, when you should have learned something about marketing?

OK, never mind. I just trust my eyes and brain. You can come up with excuses as much as you want.
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]
Michael Roek-Ramirez
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Michael Roek-Ramirez »

Right: Marketing says, if a product is good, nobody asks for improvements.
I myself skipped most intermediate versions and some main verisions of Pl32 until getting trapped with a missing function or a bug (which meanwhile had been fixed).
That does not mean I am not interested in a product (I am one of thoses guys not installing every minor Ubuntu thing, but just stay with the LTS versions)
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Michael
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

der_fotograf wrote: Sat 22 Apr 2017 12:26 Just look how the interest in new versions drastically dropped when the competitor released his Windows version of the 16 bit image editor last year:
To which competitor are you referring?
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by der_fotograf »

Michael Roek-Ramirez wrote: Sat 22 Apr 2017 19:51 Right: Marketing says, if a product is good, nobody asks for improvements.
I see what you mean: The long bug fix list that is published with every new release reveals the superiority of this particular product as well as the never ending wish lists in the forum.

It appears to me you are living in a very small world, which looks like a disc...
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Michael Roek-Ramirez »

>which looks like a disc...<
Yes, Sir, a 5 1/4 " one! Oh.... I forgot the PDP-frisbee-style disks!
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Michael
evren
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Product superiority?

Post by evren »

I would like to express my point of view as a professional designer, without involving in disc issues :)

Competiting Product?
I see so rare alternatives because I strictly need a high end raster & vector support together. Regarding to competitors, passing design betweens 2 dfferent packages of same suite even not an option. Sounds like a joke to me.

Development Environment
Most competitors working with a huge team of developers and intergrating their codes in a suite to create the product. Sounds great from far? ;)
No... Strictly no, and be sure it is no... Anyone familiar with programming already know that, a limited core team which follows all the functions is pretty much better. Not for developer, but for client. That makes software much more compact and fast.

Usage Of Low Level Languages
Another plague of the software giants (competitors) are their tendency to high level languages. Well it is cheaper and faster to develop. High level languages also offers many facilites for chinese-wall working environment and re-integrate. Also another point for their benefit, not client. But if you want to follow your interests as a client, look for softwares developed with low level languages.
You get much more fast, much more compact software with way far less resource usage.
But it is harder to code and needs more time. I appreciate Huber brothers.

Last note, how much it differs? A fresh and well known example
For the ones closed to webservers, check the market share change and the performans/security comparasions between Apache and NginX. Apache was dominating the market nearly alone before NginX. And it was developed, fixed and bug tested by an army of developers. One day a crack head Russian start to code his own. Alone...
Result, concentrated in only base functions but way more more faster and secure.
After start to penetrate market share of Apache extremely fast, recently passed 30% what Microsoft trying to do for god knows how many years. Now NginX is also teamwork but, a central mind in follow of all.

So, friends, this is the difference of huge but average teams vs. limited but qualified teams. This example is only for the ones familiar with programming. Others may do not understand the point exactly. But no harm to express.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by der_fotograf »

Thanks for your input. However, passing design between 2 different apps is not bad if it is seamless. No, I don't mean Adobe products.

Xara used to code with very low level languages up to version 4, resulting in a very small footprint application. But it lacked color management (and still does). Unfortunately the image editing was some sort of crippled, whereas the vector capabilities were world class. I don't know if this is still valid though, because for more than 10 years I have never used a windows machine again.

I know the story behind QNX Neutrino, the RTOS. Real time power in 2 MB, including networking and graphical user interface. Very impressive - at least in my eyes. I also remember the story of RISC OS on the Acorn Archimedes machines with Strong ARM processors (now property of Intel). Unfortunately they were too small to survive...

BTW, I didn't mention the way of coding in my observation, meaning it wasn't me who tried to distract from bare facts. I've just seen the numbers and visualized them. Now I am surprised that nobody wants to see the numbers and the logical trend.

Even more strange is the desire of a few users to request a Linux version in this situation. If there really would be a profitable market for a Linux version, I know that Adobe would already have filled that gap. But they didn't, because they know better, learned their lessons and watched others how they failed in the past.

It would be better to watch the market for the ruling operating systems (Win and Mac). Serif jumped into one of them and proved to be a game changer, a very fast and powerful kid on the block without the help of Chinese coders. They produced two top selling apps and ruled the App Store for more than a year. Last year they released a win version with great success. Better take this development and competition serious and adjust your point of view instead of discussing a Linux version... uhm, which one again? Ubuntu, Debian, SuSE, Mint, Elementary, Manjaro, Fedora, Zorin, CentOS, Arch? Just to name a few. Damn it, it's so hard to pinpoint the one with a large user base.
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by peter-funken »

Michael Roek-Ramirez wrote: Sat 22 Apr 2017 19:51 Right: Marketing says, if a product is good, nobody asks for improvements.
I myself skipped most intermediate versions and some main verisions of Pl32 until getting trapped with a missing function or a bug (which meanwhile had been fixed).
That does not mean I am not interested in a product (I am one of thoses guys not installing every minor Ubuntu thing, but just stay with the LTS versions)
Regards
Michael
The question is, what happened around November 2016, when interest dropped from over 1000 - 3000 to under 500? What you state was probably always valid, also at times when access to the messages was in the 3000s. What really happend was Affinity Photo for Windows. The introductory offer was for €39,95 and I got myself a licence. Now I have both Affinity and Photoline.
That brings me back to the question at hand: Linux. Why?
I am no IT freak, I am just a user. No matter which programme is really "the best", I judge the the results I can achieve with my limited knowledge and skills. In that context Affinity appeals to me much more than Photoline, which simply overwhelms me with its power. The same goes for operating systems. I am a photo emthusiast and I happen to need an OS and editing programmes. All the two Linux users I know are IT enthusiasts who happen to also love photography. Are you really going to cater for the IT freak as opposed to the lover of the arts? The addition of a Linux version would point in that direction.
If you listened to me (which you probably should not) it would be good if Photoline went more in the direction of usability for the "simple" photographer rather than adding a Linux version for the IT savvy.
Last edited by peter-funken on Sun 23 Apr 2017 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by der_fotograf »

If you listened to me (which you probably schould not) it would be good if Photoline went more in the direction of usability for the "simple" photographer rather than adding a Linux version for the IT savvy.
That's similar to what I've always said: offer a modular app. I for example don't need the vector stuff, I just need a pure, lean, precise pixel editor. Last time I mentioned this someone told me it wouldn't make a difference. Well, it does: fewer icons, fewer bugs, less confusing layers and tweaks.

I used to work with PL for a decade or even longer. When I saw the Affinity beta app, I just gave it a try, because I already enjoyed the Designer (including the pixel editor). I am always open for new and great approaches and solutions. And yes, I really like Linux for specific tasks — it's hard to beat in network environments, private browsing, managing devices, etc., really.

You mentioned usability. Do you know how many times users in this forum asked for a better usability, a more modern look and feel, a sleeker GUI? Almost nothing happened.

As great as PL is — it starts collecting dust on my Mac. I'm still with version 17.xx, which was sufficient for my purposes.

Now I'm using the other app. After watching the almost 300 videos (made by the company and its developers!) on YouTube or vimeo I can perform tasks with it I never could with PL — because there was no video available. Add the sleek and modern GUI and you know why I am hooked ;-)

Instead of putting effort into a Linux version it would be better to invest into a GUI update as well as a great operator and produce some impressive 'how to' videos. But I guess it's too late...
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]