Once more: Linux?

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
evren
Mitglied
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed 04 Dec 2013 05:48

Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by evren »

How many companies will invest Linux for small amount of users primarily interested on open source and free-software?
Linux needs consolidation. Me also highly interested, but no way until different distros will become just a difference in IU not the core. I know hard :)
Linux lovers (me not but I'm ready to switch to) better need to press over distro providers to a shared core to support softwares between distros. If it can happen, nobody will need to ask developers for a Linux version. They will do with pleasure. It can even exceed Windows in manner of software support.

Another option mentioned that is to use development environments which can compile for more distros. I don't know about them but I know one simple issue. If something can compile to different OS's without in need of serious code edit, means high level. Means more resource and low speed. For an office package or music player it may not differ but in a video / image / sound etc. media editor, well it matters.

And some mentions;
Marketing says, if a product is good, nobody asks for improvements
Absolutely wrong. Demands never ever finishes.
The good but easy path is to follow demands which concern at least 30% of the clients. Less than it you need to IGNORE.
The best strategy is to follow the demands in the same 30% way but also consider your difference in market in equal importance.

Now many questions arised after that 2 line. Let's clear.
Absolutely wrong? Yes. Watch the software industry, you will see many like pop stars listening ALL demands, responding ALL needs. They rise and become POPular extremely fast. But after about 2 years they start to dropdown until they disappear from market. Because they listen all, try to integrate all and end-up as a BLOATWARE. People start to complain about stability, performance and security issues soon and LEFT IT. This cycle is so typical in the world of newbie developers.

In the other hand, there are software legends remains trough the time. Because they know their position in market and they do protect it.
PS for example. Positions is simple. The best interface / more functions (just to address doesn't mean works good)
Because of that I don't see a competitor can take AVERAGE users from PS. They even resist to integrate at least Lanczos! Even lacking in PNG support! F..king joke but reality. But still they sell. No vector?! No matter they sell. That's why can't take average users from them.

Corel... No. If you will ask me to address something more bloat than PS, I will say Corel. And it's format is also uncompatible with anything else. Closed formats are absolutely bad strategy.

Why I chose PL so?
It is fast, first things first... I'm professional, not doing as a hobby. My time costs and my tools need to be fast. I even can't afford the time PS takes just to open a big file. Big file? Yes big, I'm not photo retoucher. In a high-end PC, PS opens about in a minute, PL opens about in 10 seconds. I even didnt mention about the processing speed to edit / save etc.

Interface of PL
I don't care. If I will be looking for beauty PS is right there appealing. I'm pro my priority is saving time. I know wery well that pretty interfaces are really hard in low level environments. Just that beauty can bloat the software. Sure it can be better without slowing down but need to left Hubers for priorities. I agreee some improvements in need. For me those are better structured menu, no scrolling lists or some tabbed staff. Needs time.

Functions in PL
I guess starting from v2 release it become complete. PL even have specific functions demanded by not 30% even maybe 5%. If you will ask me about funtions, I prefer to keep speed and I can sacrify from some rare needed functions. Me also need many, but I even didn't offer as a feature demand.

Finally, ending up with knowing your position in market.
PL offers an amazing speed and resource usage. Can open and work over several huge files in same time. And a real 64bit support. So, those have a cost. If we are here, means we passed the most beautiful UI expectations. Address for it is different. We passed the open source and multiplatform editor. Their address are also different. And please download some multi platform editors and compare the performance to understand what I mention.

We are not living in alice's wonderland. Every demand comes with a sacrifice as the rule of life. How many of you will sacrify from performance and stability of this compact structure?
wilson
Mitglied
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed 22 Jan 2014 12:43

Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by wilson »

evren wrote: Sun 23 Apr 2017 20:38
Why I chose PL so?
It is fast, first things first... I'm professional, not doing as a hobby. My time costs and my tools need to be fast. I even can't afford the time PS takes just to open a big file. Big file? Yes big, I'm not photo retoucher. In a high-end PC, PS opens about in a minute, PL opens about in 10 seconds. I even didnt mention about the processing speed to edit / save etc.
Really? I have a high-end PC (need it for work, 3D animation/ illustration), and PS starts up in under 10 seconds. Including several loaded plugins. Either your PC is not high-end at all, or something is seriously awry with your system.

And nothing, repeat: NOTHING beats PS when it comes to big files. Let alone work with them, or, to just name an example, use the Liquify tool with a 15.000 pixel radius with absolutely no visible lag. Try that in Photoline, you'd be waiting for the first click edit to happen on Christmas. Nothing beats PS in speed. It is not GPU accelerated in many areas for nothing.

Photoline might start up a little faster still (on my system, Photoline starts up in about 2-3 seconds), but who cares when the image editing app runs the entire day anyway?

And: you can save and continue to work while saving. No delay at all. No other app I know of offers a feature like this.
Seems you haven't used PS in many years.

I'm not saying that Photoline isn't a good app, it is. But if it beat Photoshop, noone would be willing to pay the monthly fee for it, but switch to Photoline in the blink of an eye. I know I would.
User avatar
Hoogo
Betatester
Posts: 3928
Joined: Sun 03 Jul 2005 13:35
Location: Mülheim/Ruhr

Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Hoogo »

wilson wrote: Thu 14 Sep 2017 15:29...the Liquify tool with a 15.000 pixel radius with absolutely no visible lag. Try that in Photoline...
I've seen exactly this example more than once before. You need a Gigapixel picture to "benefit" from such a brush and move nearly the whole pic, at ~5% zoom...
So I wonder:
-Would you spot the difference if the whole matrix was created at a zoom level of 5% and then upscaled?
-Was there a need for such a task? Were there specialized tools available for it?
-Or did this become the benchmark for processing speed just in the moment PS could do it, and nobody asked for such thing before? Just like "Nobody needs vector graphics in PS, that's what Illu is used for" turned into "Wow, I love the vector tools in the latest PS, I don't have to switch to illu anymore, I'll never want to return to the old version"?
----------------
Herr Doktor, ich bin mir ganz sicher, ich habe Atom! /Doctor, doctor, I'm sure, I've got atoms!
wilson
Mitglied
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed 22 Jan 2014 12:43

Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by wilson »

Hoogo wrote: Thu 14 Sep 2017 16:28
wilson wrote: Thu 14 Sep 2017 15:29...the Liquify tool with a 15.000 pixel radius with absolutely no visible lag. Try that in Photoline...
I've seen exactly this example more than once before. You need a Gigapixel picture to "benefit" from such a brush and move nearly the whole pic, at ~5% zoom...
So I wonder:
-Would you spot the difference if the whole matrix was created at a zoom level of 5% and then upscaled?
-Was there a need for such a task? Were there specialized tools available for it?
-Or did this become the benchmark for processing speed just in the moment PS could do it, and nobody asked for such thing before? Just like "Nobody needs vector graphics in PS, that's what Illu is used for" turned into "Wow, I love the vector tools in the latest PS, I don't have to switch to illu anymore, I'll never want to return to the old version"?
I'm not saying that a 15.000 pixels radius for that tool is strictly necessary, but I'm certainly not complaining about it either - why should I? Better to have a tool that can do more than you need than less. And you can see whats actually possible performance-wise.

I do not want to complain about Photoline, or stress the comparison with PS, but I'm starting to have performance problems in Photoline with the warp tool at a small fraction of the brush radius. And thats certainly not beneficial to my workflow.

I'm also not complaining about vectors in PS. If you don't need that, don't use it.
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3999
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Martin Huber »

wilson wrote: Thu 14 Sep 2017 18:06I'm not saying that a 15.000 pixels radius for that tool is strictly necessary, but I'm certainly not complaining about it either - why should I? Better to have a tool that can do more than you need than less. And you can see whats actually possible performance-wise.
I doubt that Ps is handling a 1 giga pixel brush in real time. Memory bandwidth is simply not high enough.

And I doubt that Photoshop is handling liquify of giga pixel images in GPU. A GPU offers advantages mainly with computationally intensive operations, because moving to and from GPU memory is quite slow. Liquify isn't really computationally intensive. So in order to be advantageous to use the GPU, all image data have to be in GPU memory. And the amount of memory needed is:
- 1 GB for the brush
- at least 3 GB for the image (8 bit RGB with 1 giga pixel assumed)
- 1 GB for the mask
- 8 GB for the transformation map of liquify

I am not really up to date with current graphic cards, but I think 13 GB is still unusual.

So I am quite sure, that Ps is editing a scaled down version. And using a scaled down version works fine with PhotoLine, too.

Martin
wilson
Mitglied
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed 22 Jan 2014 12:43

Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by wilson »

I can zoom in the Photoshop Liquify window, and the resolution there is the same as the original document. At least it is displayed at this resolution, it might be that it is calculated at a lower resolution internally. No downscaling is visible.

GPU is a GTX 1080 with 8GB of RAM.
evren
Mitglied
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed 04 Dec 2013 05:48

Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by evren »

Hi Wilson.
Liqufy tool is something I use rarely, but didnt have a slowdown, even layers with effects. And no idea how it works in PS. If PS scales down for preview, for me it's smart, not a bad strategy.

But need to read post before reply, please.
I didnt mention launch time. And I dont care about it. Due to OS's prefetch functions, lanuch time is not too much meaningful. And because of it's side effects, prefecth is always disabled in my system. Under my conditions (no prefetch trick) PS launch time was about 3 seconds without plugins (1,5 year ago), PL launch is about 1 seconds with 27 plugins (currently). If this is the criteria, I'm still happy.

But as I said, no meaning. What I was mentioning was the time to open files. For example, my last job bring to print was 21000 x 30000 raster poster in TIF format. It takes about 13 seconds for me to open the file. when I bring to print, didnt count seconds but took more than 1,5 minutes in high end MAC (no embedded color profile and uses SSD).

Same applies to processing when with layers. This is the case. I dont care launch times I'm not gamer.
Another issue is what I faced last year. Whatever configuration is, PS was unable to open PDF vector files more than 4 meter long (I guess not related to pixel, rather size, not sure but can not)

And correct guess, I'm away from PS for a long while. In my last check it was still forcing people to use bicubic (no lanczos integration) and the PNG render was still like a joke. Even dont mention lack in vector capabilities or PDF import issues (rasterizing) So, I design to live not as hobby. Sure I'm away from PS and I will be. And last thing I would like to see is PL become like PS. That day I will stop following updates.

Note: Just to not mislead, most of my 27 plugins are so simple ones. Not heavy stuff. I'm not sure but, it may cost equal weight to 10 plugins on system.