Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Hier diskutieren die Anwender von PhotoLine untereinander
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Martin Stricker
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Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by Martin Stricker »

Mich würde interessieren wer von den Betatestern PL überhaupt als seinen Standard RAW-Konverter verwendet?

Ich bin der Meinung, dass die RAW-Konvertierung in PL einfach zu schwer zu durchschauen ist und somit die Meisten von vornherein davon abhält PL überhaupt dazu zu verwenden. Das finde ich schade, weil die RAW-Bearbeitung in den letzten Jahren immer mehr zu einem Schwerpunkt in der Bildbearbeitung geworden ist. Man kann auch in PL sehr gute Ergebnisse erzielen doch wer durchschaut die Möglichkeiten die es gibt überhaupt?

Es wäre doch möglich statt dem bisherigen Gewirr an Arbeitsebenen eine RAW-Arbeitsebene einzuführen die wenigstens die Grundoptionen anbietet, die man aus herkömmlichen RAW-Konvertern kennt.

Martin
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ellhel
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by ellhel »

Hallo,

das würde mir auch gefallen. Ich bin für alles, was dem Anwender entgegenkommt.
Ich hatte ja auch schon die "verrückte Idee" mit einer "Aktionen-und Dialog-Einstellungen"-Tauschbörse. Und da könnte man sogar bewährte Entwicklungspresets für gängige Kameras austauschen. Davon könnten Einsteiger natürlich besonders profitieren.
PhotoLine ist zwar kein "One-Click-Tool". Aber gerade RAW ist wohl genau das Bildformat, das die Hauptzielgruppe (fortgeschrittene Bildbearbeiter) der PL-Anwender benutzt. Daher halte ich den Vorschlag von Martin für einen sehr guten und praxisorientierten Vorschlag.

+1000

Liebe Grüße
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Martin Stricker
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by Martin Stricker »

ellhel wrote: Daher halte ich den Vorschlag von Martin für einen sehr guten und praxisorientierten Vorschlag.
Danke für die Unterstützung. Mich würde aber auch interessieren wer außer mir PL als RAW-Konverter regelmäßig nutzt.

Martin
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by JulianZI »

Ich habe PL32 benutzt um zu sehen wie die RAWs eine Fuji XE1 ohne Verzeichniskorrektur aussehen welche viele RAW Konverter von Haus aus anwenden, also nur experimentell.
Ansonsten schreckt mich die Einbettung der RAW Daten ab. Würden die RAWs nicht eingebettet und die PLD sozusagen als "sidecar" zu einer *.NEF, *.RAF (der was auch immer) funktionieren, würde das mehr Sinn machen da man auch leicht mehrere Versionen speichern könnte. Ansonsten finde ich finde die Ergebnisse durchaus gut, welche man mit PL32 erzielen kann.
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by gmhofmann »

Hallo Martin,

ich fotografiere mit Canon EOS-Kameras, nutze aber PL nie für RAW-Aufnahmen, weil ich damit nicht zurechtkomme.
Die Hilfe/Anleitung nützt mir da nichts.

Grüße
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photoken
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by photoken »

Martin Stricker wrote: Es wäre doch möglich statt dem bisherigen Gewirr an Arbeitsebenen eine RAW-Arbeitsebene einzuführen die wenigstens die Grundoptionen anbietet, die man aus herkömmlichen RAW-Konvertern kennt.
My apologies if the machine translation of bing and Google have caused me to misunderstand what you're saying....

I think it's a very bad idea to introduce some kind of separate "RAW image workflow/adjustments". Doing so would needlessly duplicate the adjustments already available in PL for any image, and add an unnecessary complication to the User Interface. The beauty of using PL for RAW image processing is that RAW images are treated exactly the same as any other image, which makes everything nice and simple and direct. This is in stark contrast to other image editors which force the user to first endure a stupid little "RAW image editing window" before the RAW image is opened in the main editing window. That process does not make any sense at all, IMO.

I use both PL and RawTherapee to process the RAW images from my LF1, and I have no complaints about PL's RAW processing procedures. I spent some time testing and evaluating the various adjustments available in PL, and saved my final set of adjustments as a preset so I can now instantly apply it to any new image from my camera. No complaints from me about processing and editing RAW images in PL.
Ken
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Martin Stricker
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by Martin Stricker »

photoken wrote: I think it's a very bad idea to introduce some kind of separate "RAW image workflow/adjustments". Doing so would needlessly duplicate the adjustments already available in PL for any image, and add an unnecessary complication to the User Interface.
As you probably know there are several options in the preferences how to handle RAWs. For example you can choose an Action you wan't to assign to your RAW images. So there could simply be an other option to choose an RAW-Adjustmentlayer instead of an Action or none. There is no complication at all.
photogen wrote: The beauty of using PL for RAW image processing is that RAW images are treated exactly the same as any other image, which makes everything nice and simple and direct. This is in stark contrast to other image editors which force the user to first endure a stupid little "RAW image editing window" before the RAW image is opened in the main editing window. That process does not make any sense at all, IMO.
I don't want an editing window to open but an Adjustment Layer that contains main RAW-Adjustments just like color temperature, input curves, exposure correction and so on. This would be similar to now but easier to treat for most people.
photogen wrote: No complaints from me about processing and editing RAW images in PL.
I think you are almost the only one. For most people the PL approach is a huge hurdle. Instead they like to develop ther images in a stupid little editing window. :roll:

In fact I think it is unnecessary complicated now.

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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by JulianZI »

I thin the current logic is almost consistent. I would not change it to the old behaviour to have a dialog.

There is a RAW layer - that contains the RAW data and you can select demosaicing
There are adjustment layers.

Unfortunately right now, when importing a RAW this happens:
- it creates a RAW layer (great)
- It creates adjustment layers which are grouped with the RAW layer (why here)
- It creates a histogram on top of that which is not part of the previos Group. That is *not* consistent since without that layer the image is black. That histogram should be part of the RAW group and always be adjusted automatically.

If that would be the case there would be no need to have the RAW data embedded (see my note above - I really dislike storing redundant data). The first histogram will always even out the image and make it possible to adjust it with the other adjustment group. The other group can be saved as adjustment which the first group works on each individual RAW.

I think it is almost there - just the order of layers/work layers is wrong.
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Martin Stricker
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by Martin Stricker »

JulianZI wrote: I think it is almost there - just the order of layers/work layers is wrong.
Would it be so hard to introduce a new Adjustment Layer which contains the terms that are known by most people?

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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by JulianZI »

Martin Stricker wrote:
JulianZI wrote: I think it is almost there - just the order of layers/work layers is wrong.
Would it be so hard to introduce a new Adjustment Layer which contains the terms that are known by most people?
I support this thought:
- have one adjustment layer to pre-cook the RAW image *inside* the group
- have another adjustment layer with the usual shades, gradation, color to season the not so RAW anymore data

The regular user should not be expected to adjust layer #1 - histogram can be calculated automatically.
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by Hoogo »

I use PL for RAW, but I'm really lazy for a long time now, some experiments, but no serious pictures.
Last topic for me was the handling of blown highlights and thoughts why they are darkened, must be somewhere here...
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Bearbeitung von RAW hat PL verloren ...

Post by siepict »

... vielleicht auch gar nicht gewollt?
moin,
ich erlaube mir das mal ganz deutlich auszusprechen:
das hat PL verloren. es gibt mittlerweile sehr gute RAW und allgemeine 'bild-entwickler'. und gerade bei vielen bildern spielt das tempo und die einfachheit eine große rolle - und sei es nur eine grobe automatische korrektur zur betrachtung, auswahl und verschlagwortung, da kommt PL nicht mehr mit.
horst
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by bkh »

JulianZI wrote: - It creates adjustment layers which are grouped with the RAW layer (why here)
My guess is that those are the adjustment layers which you are not supposed to touch (unless you really know what you are doing …)
JulianZI wrote: - It creates a histogram on top of that which is not part of the previos Group. That is *not* consistent since without that layer the image is black. That histogram should be part of the RAW group and always be adjusted automatically.
Agreed. I think I also suggested something similar. However, you may need to touch it if you want to lower the "exposure" in order to recover some lost highlights (sometimes, the same is true for "Correct Highlights"). If this first histogram correction layer sets the correct exposure, then highlights beyond white are automatically clipped, and one can't pull in subsequent steps. Splitting the histogram layer into two, one for correcting the gamma value and one with an "exposure" slider might make sense.

Actually, I think that one should only have one adjustment layer – two layers probably only make life more complicated. Opening the adjustment layer panel once a raw has beed loaded might help new users as well.

However, I see two points where PL probably can't compete with other raw developers:

1) most people expect raw developers to produce appealing images "out of the box". This requires per-camera fine tuning, in particular re. contrast, colour saturation, de-noising, sharpening.

2) lens correction: correct distortion, CA, maybe sharpening depending on the lens, focal length and aperture

Therefore, I think that PL's raw development feature will never be for the masses, even if the UI was simplified to match other raw developers

Cheers

Burkhard.
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photoken
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by photoken »

JulianZI wrote: when importing a RAW this happens:
...
- It creates a histogram on top of that which is not part of the previos Group. That is *not* consistent since without that layer the image is black. That histogram should be part of the RAW group and always be adjusted automatically.
I don't understand what you're seeing. When I open a RAW image, this is the default layer stack:
RAW layers default.png
The layers included in the Adjustment layer are these:
RAW adjustment layers default.png
There is only one Histogram adjustment layer, and it behaves as you are asking for.

The same layer structure and behavior is created if I import a RAW image.

I tested this with CR2, DNG, NEF and RW2 images in PL 18.90b13 x64.
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Re: Bearbeitung von RAW in PL

Post by photoken »

bkh wrote: However, I see two points where PL probably can't compete with other raw developers:

1) most people expect raw developers to produce appealing images "out of the box". This requires per-camera fine tuning, in particular re. contrast, colour saturation, de-noising, sharpening.
As far as I can tell, PL does produce an appealing image immediately upon opening a RAW file. The "appealing" quality is dependent on DCRAW, which has defined the corrections it uses for the cameras it supports. Of course, one should add and tweak the adjustments according to taste, and afterward the whole customized adjustment stack can be saved as a preset and quickly applied to subsequent images.
bkh wrote:2) lens correction: correct distortion, CA, maybe sharpening depending on the lens, focal length and aperture
True enough. From what I observe, PL can't compete with RawTherapee (for example), because RT has a team of (volunteer) developers who do nothing but code interesting functionality -- they don't do customer support, they don't write code for image editing, they don't even do much of a job of documentation. The result is that such a program that does nothing but process RAW images will have an advantage in implementing some very advanced RAW processing features.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.