Silly questions

[brucet]

A couple of lazy questions. The manual works but sometimes I can't find what I'm looking for!

First is there a way to lock in the cursor icon. I'm using the Free Lasso and it keeps changing the cursor. Sometimes it's a finger. Sometimes it's cross hairs. Sometimes it's the pointer. What am I doing wrong that I keep getting different cursors? If I scroll off the editing screen it will also change.

Second. The Eraser. Works fine, but!! It lags behind where the cursor is. And I have to go past where I need to erase. I need to be more precise.

Third. In PSP if I'm using the eraser and make a mistake I can hold down the right mouse/pen button and it will undo/restore what has been erased. Is there a way of doing this in Photoline.

Sorry if these questions are in the manual but I can't find the answers.

Thanks.

[photoken]

1. It's difficult to tell what's happening without seeing exactly what you're doing at each step, whether you've got multiple layers being affected, if you're adding to an existing lasso, etc. For starters, here are the settings I'm using in Win7 Pro x64. Maybe these settings will calm things down for you (I like to have the precise cursor crosshairs whenever possible, so if you don't like the crosshairs you can disable the "Precise Cursor" options):
   cursor options.jpg
2. Do you have "Smoothing" turned on in the tool settings for the Eraser? Disabling smoothing will help.
3. No, that feature is not in PL. (I liked that feature in PSP, too. But I've since realized it's much better to use masking, which is non-destructive and much more versatile.) In PL, if you want "undo-ing" for erasing, you need to create a mask and paint on the mask -- black will "erase", white will "restore".

[brucet]

Thanks Ken.

I have multiple layers open. I use the lasso to define a selection. Then hit delete to erase it. Yes I know but I've always worked this way and it works for me!! It allows me full control of my cutouts/contours. It opens with various cursors but if I move my pen outside the editing pane I always get the arrow cursor. Which I don't mind but I'd love to avoid doing this.

Yup. Smoothing was on. Now working fine.

Masks are not my preferred way of working. Maybe I need to put a greater effort into using them.

Maybe, just maybe, Photoline can give us a right button restore feature in the future for the eraser.

Thanks again.

[bkh]

First is there a way to lock in the cursor icon. I'm using the Free Lasso and it keeps changing the cursor. Sometimes it's a finger. Sometimes it's cross hairs. Sometimes it's the pointer. What am I doing wrong that I keep getting different cursors? If I scroll off the editing screen it will also change.

If the cursor keeps changing, it's probably because you already have a selection. If you turn on "Show Lasso" in the toolbar, you'll see a rectangle with control points around the lasso, and the cursor changes whenever it's near the control points, ready to scale/rotate/move the current selection.

lasso.jpg

EDIT: Just use Edit -> Deselect to get rid of a previous lasso/selection.

Third. In PSP if I'm using the eraser and make a mistake I can hold down the right mouse/pen button and it will undo/restore what has been erased. Is there a way of doing this in Photoline.

If you use a layer with transparency, you can unerase using a normal brush: you'll have to choose an opaque colour and turn off the R,G, and B channels in the tool settings. (Remember to turn them back on before you want to paint normally.) Might be a nice idea to enable unerasing with the right mouse button (if the preferences are set to erase with that button when painting) or the eraser tip of the pen tablet, though. You can also convert the alpha channel to a layer mask and change that mask, of course.

Cheers

Burkhard.

[photoken]

Maybe, just maybe, Photoline can give us a right button restore feature in the future for the eraser.

I'd vote against that. I see no need to increase the size of PLD files by including a history of eraser strokes, nor do I see the need for the additional complexity in the code to accommodate them.

I rarely use the Eraser tool. Only in some cases where I've used the Border Matting tool to separate an object onto its own layer might I hit a few places along some of the edges with the Eraser to clean them up.

I understand that masks aren't your preferred way of working, but they do offer much greater control. Especially since PL easily allows creating child layers/masks of child layers/masks of child layers/masks....

Here's a goofy little experiment to demonstrate what I mean:

1. Open an image.
2. Make a lasso around an object. For the purposes of this demo, there's no need to be precise.
3. Use the icon at the bottom of the Layers panel to create a mask "from Mask". The object will be separated against a transparent background.
4. With that mask layer active, use the icon at the bottom of the Layers panel to create a new adjustment layer, and choose the "Minimum" adjustment. In the "Minimum" dialog, make sure the icon in the lower left has the link icon activated so the adjustment layer will be created as a child layer of the mask layer, then increase the radius and see how the mask is choked down. Click "OK" to create the Minimum adjustment layer.
5. With that Minimum adjustment layer active, use the icon at the bottom of the Layers panel to create a mask for the Minimum adjustment layer.
6. Paint with black on that new mask to hide the choking from part of the Minimum adjustment layer.
7. At this point, the edges of the image object will be hard.
8. With that last mask the active layer, use the icon at the bottom of the Layers panel to create a Gaussian Blur adjustment layer for the mask. Increase the size and intensity of the blur to make the edges of the Minimum adjustment layer somewhat transparent.
9. Create a mask for that Gaussian Blur layer, and paint with black on the mask to hide its effect along some of the edges.
10. Your layers will look like this:
    child masking layers.png

Now consider that you can:

• Vary the intensity of the black you used to paint on the masks.
• Vary the opacity of each of the layers.
• Vary the blend mode of each of the layers.
• Vary the channels used by each of the adjustment layers.

and you can see how amazingly complex and precise your "erasing" can be.

[bkh]

Maybe, just maybe, Photoline can give us a right button restore feature in the future for the eraser.

I'd vote against that. I see no need to increase the size of PLD files by including a history of eraser strokes, nor do I see the need for the additional complexity in the code to accommodate them.

Maybe I misunderstand what "unerase" in PSP does. If it's just like "undo" in PL, then that's already there (at least until you close the image – imo, there is no need to store that information in a PLD file). If it's restoring the alpha channel, then the information is still there (the alpha channel works like a layer mask in PL), so no additional information is needed. "Painting back" erased information is already possible in PL (see my previous post), so I don't see a reason why this method shouldn't be available as part of the eraser tool.

Cheers

Burkhard.

[bkh]

Now consider that you can:

• Vary the intensity of the black you used to paint on the masks.
• Vary the opacity of each of the layers.
• Vary the blend mode of each of the layers.
• Vary the channels used by each of the adjustment layers.

and you can see how amazingly complex and precise your "erasing" can be.

You can do just the same by letting the adjustment layers work on the alpha channel only of your original image layer. (Plus, you can switch from layer mask to alpha channel and back any time). Layer masks are useful if you use more than one, or use a group as a layer mask. Anything else is just a matter of taste.

Cheers

Burkhard.

[photoken]

"Painting back" erased information is already possible in PL (see my previous post)

Yes, that method works well and is the equivalent of PSP's "Unerase" feature, as I remember it. I probably misinterpreted how PSP was achieving "Unerase". Sorry about that....

[Hoogo]

If you use a layer with transparency, you can unerase using a normal brush: you'll have to choose an opaque colour and turn off the R,G, and B channels in the tool settings. (Remember to turn them back on before you want to paint normally.)

Nice. There's even an option "Edit > Options > working > cursor" to clear with the right mouse button. So if you work with a mouse, you can replace the eraser with the normal brush.

[brucet]

Thanks everyone. I see I have some homework to do.

My 'problem' is that I need/want to do very fine cutouts of objects, mostly cars and bikes, for clients. These prints can be on canvas up to 1 meter wide. So clean edges are critical. Automated actions often leave unwanted artifacts/pixels. In doing these cutouts I manually erase many areas. Especially in places such as wheels, etc etc. And being human I often make a mistake or two. So when I do I want to simple reinstate the erased pixels. PSP's right button action is a great feature when using the eraser. In PSP it's hold the left button down to erase. Hold the right button down to reinstate. I use a pen. So the pen erases and holding the button down reinstates.

I'm going to try to work with masks and see if that will help my workflow/bad habits!!

My trial is over and have paid for PL. So look out for more 'dumb' questions.

regards

[bkh]

There's even an option "Edit > Options > working > cursor" to clear with the right mouse button. So if you work with a mouse, you can replace the eraser with the normal brush.

… or you use that option with the layer mask. Set the foreground colour to black and the background colour to white and use the brush. Painting with the left mouse button will paint with black, i.e., erase the image content, "erasing" with the right mouse button will paint with white, that is, restore the original image content.

[photoken]

My 'problem' is that I need/want to do very fine cutouts of objects, mostly cars and bikes, for clients. These prints can be on canvas up to 1 meter wide. So clean edges are critical.

To separate objects from their backgrounds, I always used to first quickly create a raster mask, and then at 800% painstakingly paint over every pixel of the edges with a soft edged 5px brush to get an absolutely perfect mask.

Recently, I've begun experimenting with the Vector Lasso tool, and I'm liking it more and more. When zoomed in to 500% (or more), I can approximate just about any curve with straight lines; and if not, it's easy to convert the appropriate line segments to curves and adjust their Bezier control points. Makes creating (and, more importantly, refining) masks super easy. Here's one of my first test images, isolating the motorcycle from the street background:

motorcycle 01.jpg

A screenshot at 800% of some spokes detail:

spokes.jpg

I didn't even try softening the edges, or converting line segments to curves, on that one, so I think there's definitely room for improvement as I learn more.

My trial is over and have paid for PL. So look out for more 'dumb' questions.

Sounds good. As you can tell from some of my questions/comments, I'm still asking "dumb" things too....

[brucet]

Ken you're doing pretty much what I do. Use the lasso, and do a delete. You can be very prices. I have clients who count the rivets!! The below is just a 'play' file exploring some of PL's features. But it's what clients want. While PL has some nice features sometimes it's better to stick with routines/workflows that get the desired results.

[photoken]

While PL has some nice features sometimes it's better to stick with routines/workflows that get the desired results.

Agreed. Especially if a radically different way of working first requires a significant amount of time to get it right.

As it is, that Vector Lasso technique is something I'll keep experimenting with as time permits. Like I said, for my preferred workflow it's got some intriguing potential.

For example, I did some refining to the "Master" vector mask of the previous image -- moved and added some anchor points, changed some lines to curves and applied a 1.5px soft edge to its clipping property:

spokes 02.jpg

That soft edge on the clipping property made the resolution of the separation edge match the resolution of the image itself, and also made the straight line segments of the long curves of the rim more closely resemble a continuous curve. It sure was a lot easier to move anchor points and control points to alter the clipping than it would have been to redraw those edges by painting on an image mask. I'm really beginning to see the advantages of the Vector Lasso tool for my way of working.

[greenmorpher]

Ken

The Vector Lasso technique?

Can you explain that a little, please?

Are you talking about using a vector line to manually trace something, then converting that layer to a lasso and hitting delete?

Which vector tool?

Its "clipping property"?

Cheers, Geoff