This is very strange

Here everybody can post his problems with PhotoLine
MikeFromMesa
Mitglied
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014 16:07

This is very strange

Post by MikeFromMesa »

This post is intended to pose a question about PhotoLine and how it handles layers. What I am seeing is the exact opposite of what I would expect to see and I am trying to find out what might be happening here.

I loaded a single layer tiff file and called one the Nik modules (Output Sharpener) on my system as an external editor, adjusted it and then saved the image back. I specified Edit Document and I got back a new layer on top of the Background layer. What puzzled me is that the returned stack was not any sharper than the original image, and when I did some investigation I ran into some puzzling things.

First, PL showed me 2 layers. One was marked Background, which I assumed was my original background layer, but the name I had given it was gone, replaced with just "name".

The second thing I noticed was that the returned image was not any sharper than the original, but when I unset the Show/Hide icon the image was suddenly sharper. That is, the Show/Hide icon seemed to be working exactly the opposite of how it should have been working.

My next thought was that perhaps the newly returned layer (named image) and the Background layer were reversed. That is, perhaps the Background layer was not the original background layer, but perhaps it was the newly returned sharpened image and when I deleted the "image" layer the Background layer was now sharp, exactly as it would be if the layers were reversed in order. *

All of this is very puzzling to me. Why would PL have change the layer names? Would not a new layer always be returned above the selected layer? And why would PL mark a newly returned image layer as Background? Alternately, if none of the above are correct, why would the Show/Hide icon work the exact opposite of how it should?

Can someone explain to me what is going on here?

* I know the bottom layer in the stack is labeled Background, but that just makes me ask why a new layer would be placed at the bottom of the stack.

One other thing that I should mention. If I do the external call using Edit Active Layer instead of Edit Document then I get a single layer, but it has not been sharpened.

I am on a Mac.
Last edited by MikeFromMesa on Tue 25 Jan 2022 23:50, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
der_fotograf
Mitglied
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2016 08:33

Re: This is very strange

Post by der_fotograf »

I can't help because as soon as I start the Nik Output Sharpener (set up as a plug-in) PL crashes.

Just tried it after your post, never used it before, so I never noticed the bug.
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]
MikeFromMesa
Mitglied
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014 16:07

Re: This is very strange

Post by MikeFromMesa »

> I can't help because as soon as I start the Nik Output Sharpener (set up as a plug-in) PL crashes.

I could not find the Nik Output Sharpener plugin anywhere on my system. I have the app, but not the plugin. Where did you find the plugin? Are you on Windows or Mac?

UPDATE:

Never mind. Since you mentioned it I looked in the /Library folder and found the Nik Sharpener plugin. Both of them, actually. I had looked in the user Library before but never thought to look in the system library folder. If you had not mentioned that you used it I would not have looked, so thank you.

And, by the way, it worked for me.
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3929
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: This is very strange

Post by Martin Huber »

MikeFromMesa wrote: Tue 25 Jan 2022 20:38 All of this is very puzzling to me. Why would PL have change the layer names? Would not a new layer always be returned above the selected layer? And why would PL mark a newly returned image layer as Background?
PhotoLine loads the layer in the same order in which they are saved in the transfer file. If the filtered layer is below the original one, then that's the way the external application has created it.
MikeFromMesa wrote: Tue 25 Jan 2022 20:38 One other thing that I should mention. If I do the external call using Edit Active Layer instead of Edit Document then I get a single layer, but it has not been sharpened.
That's strange. Basically, it should do the same. The only difference is that you might get a group with "Edit Active Layer" if the external application creates a file with two layers.

If you open the tranfer file manually in PhotoLine, you can check its content.

Martin
MikeFromMesa
Mitglied
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014 16:07

Re: This is very strange

Post by MikeFromMesa »

I should have thought about opening the transfer file before posting.

When I did I found exactly what you predicted - the layers are being returned in the opposite order of what would be expected, so that is how PL is displaying them. And the plugin is returning a group with the layers in the same out-of-order format.

Of course it is easy enough to just discard the top layer so it was never really a "problem". I was just puzzled by seeing the exact opposite of what I expected to see. Thank you for clearing that up.
User avatar
der_fotograf
Mitglied
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2016 08:33

Re: This is very strange

Post by der_fotograf »

I am on a Mac as well.

Just discovered my problem: I had a *.pld file with a duplicate layer of the background image (in which I do all necessary retouching, so I can turn the visibility on and off to check the before/after effect). When I merge the second layer down, the »Nik Output Sharpener« as a plug-in works flawlessly.

So the crash I mentioned had been my fault (I think).
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]
User avatar
der_fotograf
Mitglied
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2016 08:33

Re: This is very strange

Post by der_fotograf »

Played with the plug-in again.

When I merge down the duplicate (retouched) layer and still have two adjustment layers (i.e. Levels + Curves), the plug-in forces PL to crash as well. But as soon as I flatten the image, the plug-in and PL are stable.

Screenshot 2022-01-29 at 07.03.06.png
Screenshot 2022-01-29 at 07.15.16.png
To a certain extent, it makes sense and is logical, because you only apply an output sharpening at the end of the postproduction process to render the final image for print.

But as I said, I never used this plug-in. I noticed this morning that it produces some artifacts in the final image, which I don't like.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
Only few know how much you have to know to know how little you know.
— Werner Heisenberg [German theoretical physicist]
MikeFromMesa
Mitglied
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014 16:07

Re: This is very strange

Post by MikeFromMesa »

> I noticed this morning that it produces some artifacts in the final image, which I don't like.

Yes. As have I. And it seems a bit ironic that the app/plugin that caused so many questions for me turns out to be the same app/plugin that I have decided to no longer use, for exactly the same reason. The sharpening artifacts are just too unpleasant and I have no wish to spent time trying to deal with them.

Topaz has a sharpening app/plugin that gives much better results and has masking, but mostly I find that the sharpening in PL is more than sufficient for my needs.