Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
Benutzeravatar
photoken
Mitglied
Beiträge: 2162
Registriert: Sa 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von photoken »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben: I find it very frustrating to have to click on the main view to "confirm" I wish to move or work with that layer.
No, you're not "confirming" that you want to move the layer's contents, you're simply telling the program what to work with instead of assuming the program will read your mind.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
Benutzeravatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Beiträge: 2140
Registriert: Sa 12 Mai 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Herbert123 »

photoken hat geschrieben:
Herbert123 hat geschrieben: I find it very frustrating to have to click on the main view to "confirm" I wish to move or work with that layer.
No, you're not "confirming" that you want to move the layer's contents, you're simply telling the program what to work with instead of assuming the program will read your mind.
Then I ask you: why would Photoline deviate from the norm? Unless this layer workflow change benefits the overall workflow, my opinion is that it should stick to conventions as used everywhere else in the "industry" (meaning: other design software).
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Benutzeravatar
Hoogo
Betatester
Beiträge: 4021
Registriert: So 03 Jul 2005 13:35
Wohnort: Mülheim/Ruhr

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Hoogo »

Martin Huber hat geschrieben:
Hoogo hat geschrieben:
Juan hat geschrieben:When a layer is set in RGB values 128,128,128, then the Lasso cursor can´t be seeing on that layer since there is no contrast between them.
I´m on Win10 PL 19.40B10
Indeed :shock: If I remember correctly, that was solved for Windows some years ago and was only a problem for Mac?
No, that problem can't occur on Mac OS, because Mac OS doesn't support XOR mouse cursors.

On Windows PhotoLine uses the cross cursor offered by Windows and this one seems to use the XOR mode. You can force PhotoLine to use its own cross instead by using the mouse settings (turning off "Use System Cursor").

Maybe we should turn that off by default or remove it altogether?

Martin
I mixed something, see here. Today the brush shape is painted with Xor $80, don't know how it is on Mac.
What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
----------------
Herr Doktor, ich bin mir ganz sicher, ich habe Atom! /Doctor, doctor, I'm sure, I've got atoms!
Benutzeravatar
photoken
Mitglied
Beiträge: 2162
Registriert: Sa 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von photoken »

Hoogo hat geschrieben:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
Yes, I'd like to see such a CAD cursor option in addition to the precise cursor:
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... 858#p35975
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
Benutzeravatar
photoken
Mitglied
Beiträge: 2162
Registriert: Sa 28 Sep 2013 01:25

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von photoken »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben: (...) conventions as used everywhere else in the "industry" (meaning: other design software).
No, it's not "used everywhere".

CorelDraw X5 has been using the new PL behaviour for years -- if you've clicked on a layer in the layer list, the arrow keys scroll through the list. If you click on an object in the main editing window, the arrow keys move the object.

Illustrator CS5 doesn't allow using the arrow keys at all in the layers list, so you have to use the mouse to click on a layer to select it. Because of that limited capability, once you've selected a layer the arrow keys move the layer's content.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
Benutzeravatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Beiträge: 2140
Registriert: Sa 12 Mai 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Herbert123 »

photoken hat geschrieben:
Herbert123 hat geschrieben: (...) conventions as used everywhere else in the "industry" (meaning: other design software).
No, it's not "used everywhere".

CorelDraw X5 has been using the new PL behaviour for years -- if you've clicked on a layer in the layer list, the arrow keys scroll through the list. If you click on an object in the main editing window, the arrow keys move the object.

Illustrator CS5 doesn't allow using the arrow keys at all in the layers list, so you have to use the mouse to click on a layer to select it. Because of that limited capability, once you've selected a layer the arrow keys move the layer's content.
You got me there. I should have said "most" design applications I am familiar with (as far as I am aware, and in my experience). It does not invalidate my other points, though. The real question is whether CorelDraw's and (currently new) Photoline's approach improves a layer based workflow in an image editor, or hampers it.

How often will a user actually use the keys to select groups of layers? Or browse through layers with keys? Compared to moving content with the cursor keys. and utilizing the mouse to browse and select layers?

Let's compare with the industry standard (Photoshop): selecting a layer always allows for direct manipulation of a layer with the cursor keys. To select layers with the keyboard, <alt><[> and <alt><]> are used, in combination with <shift> to select multiple layers. After using the keyboard to select layers, the cursor keys can be used to move the selected content. It is direct, and it works well. Better than the current approach in Photoline's newest beta, which just takes more clicks, and more careful clicking, and ends up as a more convoluted workflow.

I think we should ask ourselves HOW we work most efficiently with layers in Photoline. Do we focus on content, or on the layer list with cursor keys? I had no issues working with the previous versions of Photoline. Select one or more layers, and I can move the content with the cursor keys (as long as the layer tool is active). Now I do encounter workflow paint points: it takes me extra time, and extra effort, because I must click very specific GUI elements before I can move elements with the cursor keys after selecting them in the layer panel. And there are issues, which I mentioned in my previous post, with the current implementation as it is, which lead to inconsistent behaviour in Photoline.

If anything, I strongly suggest to make this behaviour a preference setting. At the very least accommodate both workflows. Please do not force the new method on all of us. That is all I ask. It is very hard adjusting one's kinetic memory of decades to a new method (one that already costs me more time and effort to work with in the latest beta).
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Falaffel
Mitglied
Beiträge: 397
Registriert: So 26 Mai 2013 12:33

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Falaffel »

Hoogo hat geschrieben:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I asked for that in this thread. I would be happy too, if this will beimplemented.
Grüße
Robert
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Beiträge: 4159
Registriert: Di 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Prob: Visibility of precise cursor on high-res display

Beitrag von Martin Huber »

photoken hat geschrieben:There is a problem with the visibility of the precise cursor when the crosshair uses dots instead of a solid line.

I recently purchased a new notebook computer with a high-resolution display (2880 x 1620), with Win7 Pro x64.
What's the dpi value or zoom of the display in the Windows settings?

Martin
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Beiträge: 4159
Registriert: Di 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Martin Huber »

Hoogo hat geschrieben:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
Eurgail
Mitglied
Beiträge: 379
Registriert: So 06 Jul 2014 23:02

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Eurgail »

Martin Huber hat geschrieben:
Hoogo hat geschrieben:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
That is my opinion, too.
Juan
Mitglied
Beiträge: 611
Registriert: Do 06 Okt 2011 08:08

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Juan »

Martin Huber hat geschrieben:
Hoogo hat geschrieben:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".

And "auto contrast" cursor could be the solution?

Cheers,
Juan
Juan
Mitglied
Beiträge: 611
Registriert: Do 06 Okt 2011 08:08

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Juan »

Hoogo hat geschrieben:What I liked in my graphic program on Commodore64: The precise cursor painted a vertical and horizontal line through the whole picture, afaik CAD programs do the same. Might be a nice solution here.
But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".

And "auto contrast" cursor could be the solution?

Cheers,
Juan[/quote]
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Beiträge: 4159
Registriert: Di 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Martin Huber »

Juan hat geschrieben:
Martin Huber hat geschrieben:I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.

Martin
But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".
The question whether a full window cross hair is useful is independent of your problem.

The solution to your problem is a mouse cursor that doesn't use XOR. You can currently get that by turning off "Use System Cursor" in the mouse settings.

But as I said: Maybe we shouldn't use this system cursor at all.

Martin
Benutzeravatar
Hoogo
Betatester
Beiträge: 4021
Registriert: So 03 Jul 2005 13:35
Wohnort: Mülheim/Ruhr

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Hoogo »

Martin Huber hat geschrieben:I don't understand the advantage of a full window cross hair. It doesn't give you any additional precision and IMO it's just an optical gimmick.
If you really want precision, you either have to use (automatic) guides or numeric positioning.
I agree that it is becoming less useful for really precise selection as the resolution increases, or when you have a zoom of less than 100%. But it's good enough for cropping. Today I start the crop rectangle more or less anywhere and adjust these 2 borders later, while I can adjust the end point of the crop rectangle right from the start.
Juan hat geschrieben:But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".
Like the brush outlines, these lines would be drawn by PL, it would be drawn with XOR 128, that's visible anywhere.
----------------
Herr Doktor, ich bin mir ganz sicher, ich habe Atom! /Doctor, doctor, I'm sure, I've got atoms!
Martin Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Beiträge: 4159
Registriert: Di 19 Nov 2002 15:49

Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b10

Beitrag von Martin Huber »

Hoogo hat geschrieben:I agree that it is becoming less useful for really precise selection as the resolution increases, or when you have a zoom of less than 100%. But it's good enough for cropping.
There are already the position marks in the ruler.
Hoogo hat geschrieben:Today I start the crop rectangle more or less anywhere and adjust these 2 borders later, while I can adjust the end point of the crop rectangle right from the start.
What 's the difference between the start and the end point? Both are showing their position in the ruler and both can be aligned to guides and grid.
Hoogo hat geschrieben:
Juan hat geschrieben:But how this would solve the issue when a layer is set on 128 tone? it will keep being "invisible".
Like the brush outlines, these lines would be drawn by PL, it would be drawn with XOR 128, that's visible anywhere.
That might be possible on Windows, but it isn't on Mac OS.
These lines would essentially cover the whole screen, so at least on Mac OS PhotoLine would have to redraw the whole window, if it wanted to use XOR 128. And this would make it too slow. So a potential cross hair would probably be drawn the same way as the automatic guides: in a transparent window above the document window.

Martin
Antworten