Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
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photoken
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Re: Old layer behaviour -- not good

Post by photoken »

Eurgail wrote:
photoken wrote:I'll leave the discussion with my original question still unanswered:
Why can't I have the same convenience in the Layers list that I have in the Color list and the Blend Mode list?
Because you can't select a layer in the layers panel and instantly move (or stretch) it with a few key strokes, then. It's just that simple.
My earlier comment:
What I don't understand is what's so sacred about moving the contents of a layer that that should exclusively determine how the Layers panel behaves. There are many reasons for selecting a layer, and moving its contents is only one of them. Much better to behave as other lists and programs do and give the user the option of what to do once the layer has been selected....
As I keep saying, the Layers panel should be a layer navigation tool, and not merely a part of the Move tool.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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photoken
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Re: Old layer behaviour -- not good

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: ...
why not describe exactly in steps how your method would be faster to move layer content and select layers?
Sure. I think it's appropriate to recap what I've been saying about how the Layers panel should properly function as a layer navigation aid/tool. In short, I'm proposing that the Layers panel become a powerful and convenient layer navigation tool instead of merely being part of the Move tool.

When the Layers panel implements the new behaviour of retaining the input focus, these keys would be used for navigation and manipulation:
  • <
    This would switch the input focus to the main editing window. The arrow keys would then move the contents of the layer, as they do now.
  • >
    This would switch the input focus from the main editing window to the Layers panel.
  • Up arrow and down arrow
    These would move the layer selection up and down. If a group is collapsed, the selection would not enter the group and would move to the next "parent" layer. If a group is expanded, the selection would enter the group and move through the layers in the group.
  • Right arrow
    When the parent layer of a group is selected, this would expand the group.
  • Left arrow
    When the parent layer of a group is selected, this would collapse the group.
  • Home
    This would scroll the layers list to the top and select the top layer in the stack.
  • End
    This would scroll the layers list to the bottom and select the bottom layer of the stack.
  • PgUp
    When the selection is within an expanded group, this would scroll the layers list to the top of the group and select the top layer in the group.
    This would scroll the layers list up by one screen and select the topmost layer of the screen.
  • PgDn
    When the selection is within an expanded group, this would scroll the layers list to the bottom of the group and select the bottom layer in the group.
    This would scroll the layers list down by one screen and select the bottommost layer of the screen.
  • [
    When the selection is within an expanded group, this would scroll the layers list to the top of the group and select the top layer in the group.
  • ]
    When the selection is within an expanded group, this would scroll the layers list to the bottom of the group and select the bottom layer in the group.
  • Delete
    This would delete the selected layer.
  • Insert
    This would open the Create New Layer dialog.
  • Enter
    This would open the Layer Properties panel for the selected layer.
  • Esc
    This would toggle the visibility of the selected layer on and off. If the "Esc" key is inappropriate for this, another key such as the "Backspace" key would be OK.
It's important to note that all those layer navigation functions would require the press of only one key.

Eight of those keys are in the bottom right corner of the keyboard, at least here on my Thinkpad W541. The other keys, except for the "Esc" key, are along the righthand edge of the keyboard. This means that only one hand is needed for navigation, and that hand does not have to move very far at all.

Wow! That would be a very sweet way to navigate even the most complex documents, especially those containing 30,000 layers and groups (or whatever the PhotoLine maximum is).

Yeah, man! Bring it on -- I can't wait to test it out! :mrgreen:
Last edited by photoken on Sat 21 Nov 2015 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
Eurgail
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Eurgail »

photoken wrote:Yeah, man! Bring it on -- I can't wait to test it out! :mrgreen:
No, please don't.
photoken wrote: As I keep saying, the Layers panel should be a layer navigation tool, and not merely a part of the Move tool.
Please, stay serious.
photoken wrote: [*]Delete
This would delete the selected layer.
[*]Insert
This would open the Create New Layer dialog.
[*]Enter
This would open the Layer Properties panel for the selected layer.
It's already possible to associate these functions to shortcuts.
photoken wrote: [*]<
This would switch the input focus to the main editing window. The arrow keys would then move the contents of the layer, as they do now.
[*]>
This would switch the input focus from the main editing window to the Layers panel.
This is a nasty shourtcut for such an important thing on english and german keyboards.


Ken, what you don't understand is, that the only thing i (or we) want to do is to click on a layer in layers panel with the mouse, move it directly with the arrow keys, click on another layer and move that one and so on... As it was the whole time.
When i started to work with Beta 10 (and i only had to do small changes to an exisiting document), i realized pretty fast, that this is not the way i want to work.
I never longed for navigating the layers like files in my file explorer, did you ever? Honestly? Where comes the speed while hitting keys for every single of your (30 000) layers?

You've never told one real limitation, an (essential) function not compatible in any way with the current behavior. Find one and let's talk again.
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by photoken »

Eurgail wrote: Ken, what you don't understand is, that the only thing i (or we) want to do is to click on a layer in layers panel with the mouse, move it directly with the arrow keys, click on another layer and move that one and so on...
I understand that very well.

I want to have the Layers panel behave like a proper layer navigation tool, not like a mere part of the Move tool. That's the difference of opinion here. Your admission that you have to use the mouse to select another layer for work is the inefficient behaviour that I want to avoid.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Eurgail »

photoken wrote:I want to have the Layers panel behave like a proper layer navigation tool [...]
For me, the layers panel is something like an advanced z axis and therefore, there are of course good reasons to have interactions to the document.

(Just for the protocol: The talk about logical behavior is only made from the view of the definitions of panels, dialogs and windows in the operating system and so, aspects of worklflow, easyness and what else are not directly respected. So in my opinion this "logic" is a good starting point, but should not necessarily be the last argument.)
photoken wrote:[...] not like a mere part of the Move tool.
Yep...
photoken wrote:Your admission that you have to use the mouse to select another layer for work [...]
Not true, there is a shortcut for this and i use it from time to time. (Also for entering or leaving groups)
photoken wrote:is the inefficient behaviour that I want to avoid.
No, works pretty fine here.
Last edited by Eurgail on Sat 21 Nov 2015 02:55, edited 2 times in total.
bkh
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by bkh »

Eurgail wrote: You've never told one real limitation, an (essential) function not compatible in any way with the current behavior. Find one and let's talk again.
There was a request to navigate the visible part of the layer stack even when "Find Layers" only showed a subset. This doesn't work with key focus always on the main window, because how should PL know if you mean the next layer visible in the main window or the next layer visible in the layer panel. Both points of view make sense – and we'd need at least separate commands/keyboard shortcuts for both functions. I'd also like to do a "Select All" just for the layers shown in the layer panel – again this would require a separate command because we still need "Select All" for the whole layer stack.

Besides, I really don't like the way the "Find" key works. If the active layer happens to be a text layer, it does a text search (with a modal dialogue and a "Find Next …" command, but on any other layer, it activates "Find layers" in the layer panel, which works in a totally different way. This means that if a text layer is active, in order to use the keyboard shortcut for "Find Layers", I'll have to activate the next non-text layer (maybe even leave the current group), then do "Find Layers", and navigate back to the original layer (of course, as always in this discussion) under the assumption that one wants to only use the keyboard).

On the other hand, the old behaviour (keyboard focus on the main window) is also nice for text panels, because with the Text tool active, you can directly type into the panel.

So imo, the old behaviour of the layer panel is perfectly ok as long as we don't have that new "Find Layer" functionality. If we really want to keep the old behaviour, then I think that the "Find Layer" command should be changed to work like "Find text", with a modal dialogue and a "Find Next" command to find the layers one by one.

Cheers

Burkhard.
Eurgail
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Eurgail »

bkh wrote:There was a request to navigate the visible part of the layer stack even when "Find Layers" only showed a subset. This doesn't work with key focus always on the main window, because how should PL know if you mean the next layer visible in the main window or the next layer visible in the layer panel. Both points of view make sense – and we'd need at least separate commands/keyboard shortcuts for both functions.
Ah ok, thank you for the hint! This has to be done by mouse at this moment.
bkh wrote:I'd also like to do a "Select All" just for the layers shown in the layer panel – again this would require a separate command because we still need "Select All" for the whole layer stack.
Would be nice, yes and can only be done by mouse now.

On the other hand, is it really necessary to have shortcuts for this special functions?
bkh wrote:Besides, I really don't like the way the "Find" key works.
I absolutely agree. Perhaps the text search should be limited to text layer and text tool activated, if the new shortcut behavior for Ctrl + F should stay.
Or another way: In my opinion, Ctrl + F should stay only for text search and should work everywhere, but if a text layer is activated the search is limited to it and if not the shortcut works, too (it doesn't in the stable version, here), but the "Document" option is activated.
bkh wrote:So imo, the old behaviour of the layer panel is perfectly ok as long as we don't have that new "Find Layer" functionality.
Not necesserily that sharp...

bkh wrote:If we really want to keep the old behaviour, then I think that the "Find Layer" command should be changed to work like "Find text", with a modal dialogue and a "Find Next" command to find the layers one by one.
In my opinion the "Find layer" is still a "Filter layer list" and doesn't need a shortcut. It should stay, if it is activated (and PhotoLine becomes closed and reopened) or even completely integrated in the layer panel and that's all.

Of course a menu entry for find layer, where special attributes can be configured would be nice, but i wouldn't mix it with the layer panel filter.
There can also be an option for "select all layers with selected attributes" ,then and these things like vector line thickness and all these requested special stuff and all this works with actions for selecting and changing all these layers in one stroke and so on.
But in my opinion it shouldn't be mixed with the small layer panel filter.
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by evren »

I couldn't understand why we need to add "+" in front of keyword in search panel.
Well it works fine, just want to know is it for test progress or final behaviour?

All bests
Martin Huber
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Martin Huber »

Eurgail wrote:
bkh wrote:I'd also like to do a "Select All" just for the layers shown in the layer panel – again this would require a separate command because we still need "Select All" for the whole layer stack.
Would be nice, yes and can only be done by mouse now.

On the other hand, is it really necessary to have shortcuts for this special functions?
That 's not the problem. The problem is, that PhotoLine already has too many menu commands. We need less menu commands, not more.

Martin
Eurgail
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by Eurgail »

Martin Huber wrote:
Eurgail wrote:
bkh wrote:I'd also like to do a "Select All" just for the layers shown in the layer panel – again this would require a separate command because we still need "Select All" for the whole layer stack.
Would be nice, yes and can only be done by mouse now.

On the other hand, is it really necessary to have shortcuts for this special functions?
That 's not the problem. The problem is, that PhotoLine already has too many menu commands. We need less menu commands, not more.

Martin
And that's connected directly: the shortcuts and the menu commands. I understand. So, for me it's not necessary to have them...
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photoken
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Re: Neue Testversion 19.40b11

Post by photoken »

Martin Huber wrote: The problem is, that PhotoLine already has too many menu commands. We need less menu commands, not more.
Sounds like the new Layers panel behaviour I'm proposing would help -- it certainly requires fewer global keyboard shortcuts for layer navigation and fewer menu commands, too.
Last edited by photoken on Sat 21 Nov 2015 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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photoken
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Re: Old layer behaviour -- not good

Post by photoken »

photoken wrote: [*]PgUp
When the selection is within an expanded group, this would scroll the layers list to the top of the group and select the top layer in the group.
[*]PgDn
When the selection is within an expanded group, this would scroll the layers list to the bottom of the group and select the bottom layer in the group.
I've thought about these keys some more, and I think it would be better to use the "PgUp" and "PgDn" keys to scroll the layers list by one screen at a time. That would greatly help in quickly moving through the layers list and would be consistent with the use of those keys in other applications.

I've modified the original keys list to reflect that, and added the square bracket keys ("[" and "]") for the group scrolling function.
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Überschreiben von Dateien beim Speichern erzeugt unsichtbare Dateien in OSX

Post by okapi »

Dieses Verhalten beobachte ich schon längere Zeit, und es tritt sowohl bei der Mehrfachkonvertierung als auch beim Speichern einzelner Dateien auf, wenn Dateien gleichen Namens im Zielverzeichnis bereits existieren. Bei der Mehrfachkonvertierung kann man zusehen, wie die überschriebenen Dateien (übrigens immer noch ohne Nachfrage!) im Finder verschwinden und nur mehr mittels "unsichtbare anzeigen" sichtbar gemacht werden können. Verwendbar sind sie trotzdem nicht, da sie aus anderen Programmen nicht auswählbar sind.

Einzige Abhilfe, die ich gefunden habe: alle Dateien im Zielverzeichnis löschen und danach Datei speichern bzw. Mehrfachkonvertierung durchführen. Kann allerdings nicht wirklich eine Dauerlösung sein...

Ich habe nicht herausgefunden, welches Attribut dabei gesetzt wird, das die Datei(en) unsichtbar macht.

Könnt ihr euch das bitte ansehen? Wünschenswert wäre wohl das von allen mir bekannten Programmen gewohnte Verhalten, dass existierende Dateien nach Nachfrage und anschließender Bestätigung ganz normal überschrieben werden.


OSX 10.11.1 (war aber auch schon mit Yosemite so)
PhotoLine 19.03 (gleiches Verhalten auch mit 19.40b11)
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Re: Überschreiben von Dateien beim Speichern erzeugt unsichtbare Dateien in OSX

Post by bkh »

okapi wrote:Dieses Verhalten beobachte ich schon längere Zeit, und es tritt sowohl bei der Mehrfachkonvertierung als auch beim Speichern einzelner Dateien auf, wenn Dateien gleichen Namens im Zielverzeichnis bereits existieren. Bei der Mehrfachkonvertierung kann man zusehen, wie die überschriebenen Dateien (übrigens immer noch ohne Nachfrage!) im Finder verschwinden und nur mehr mittels "unsichtbare anzeigen" sichtbar gemacht werden können. Verwendbar sind sie trotzdem nicht, da sie aus anderen Programmen nicht auswählbar sind.
Kann ich nicht reproduzieren (aktuelle Beta, OS X 10.10.5). Ich erzeuge eine neue Datei "test.jpg" und speichere sie in einem Verzeichnis. Dann beende ich PL, starte neu, erzeuge wieder eine neue Datei und speichere mit "Speichern unter" im gleichen Verzeichnis wieder unter dem Namen "test.jpg". Dann bekomme ich eine Warnung, dass die Datei existiert, und wenn ich "Ersetzen" wähle, wird die neue Datei gespeichert. Bei der Batch-Konvertierung gibt es auch bei mir keine Warnung, es wird einfach ersetzt. Die Dateien bleiben aber sichtbar.

Hast du mal mit dem Festplatten-Dienstprogramm überprüft, ob irgendwas auf deiner Festplatte nicht in Ordnung ist? Ist die Platte eine normale lokale HFS+-formatierte Platte? Passiert der Fehler auch, wenn du in deinem Benutzerverzeichnis ein neues Verzeichnis anlegst und dort speicherst?

L.G.

Burkhard.
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Herbert123
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Re: Old layer behaviour -- not good

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote: When the Layers panel implements the new behaviour of retaining the input focus, these keys would be used for navigation and manipulation:

(list of keys. see earlier post)

It's important to note that all those layer navigation functions would require the press of only one key.
< and > keys: I see a pain point with this method. The user may not be certain which mode Photoline is currently in. Even if the main view is selected, the user may hit the main view key once again, just to make sure she/he is working in the correct mode. This will result in uncertainty on the part of the user, and pointless additional key strokes.

It may very well result in a workflow where the user feels he/she must ALWAYS press the main view key, just to be on the safe side of having that view selected. This already happened to me with the previous version: I kept clicking the main view after switching back to Photoline, because I was unsure whether I had been working in the layer panel, or the main view, or vice versa.

this is a real issue with having the separated workflow. It DOES result in more work and user stress.

ESC key for visibility: just a bad idea. ESC is generally used to escape and/or cancel a current operation. Mapping visibility to that key defies common usage patterns for that key.

I do agree with one thing: I would like to see more layer navigation functionality myself. Funnily enough I mapped jumping in and out of layer groups with <al>cursor left and <alt> cursor right myself, and navigating up and down the layer stack with <alt>up and <alt> right.
photoken wrote: Eight of those keys are in the bottom right corner of the keyboard, at least here on my Thinkpad W541. The other keys, except for the "Esc" key, are along the righthand edge of the keyboard. This means that only one hand is needed for navigation, and that hand does not have to move very far at all.

Wow! That would be a very sweet way to navigate even the most complex documents, especially those containing 30,000 layers and groups (or whatever the PhotoLine maximum is).
I am beginning to understand why you like your own suggested layer workflow so much: I believe you mentioned before in other threads that you work predominantly with a trackpad, correct? It makes some sense within that workflow: keys and trackpad are all close together, and controlling the mouse cursor with a small trackpad such as yours is less precise (or at the very least slower to work with in a precise manner) than a mouse and graphics tablet. Thus a mostly keyboard oriented workflow would suit you best. Unfortunately, that is not how most people work in a mouse-oriented environment.
photoken wrote: In short, I'm proposing that the Layers panel become a powerful and convenient layer navigation tool instead of merely being part of the Move tool.
This is the part where I think your are mistaken: the layers are not merely part of the move tool at all: layers and the main view are integrated seamlessly, rather than fragmented into an artificial separation between the layers panel and the main view window. We can already delete layers, hide layers, activate layers, move through layers, etc. with shortcut keys and without the need to shift the focus from the main view and the layer panel, and vice versa. The option to move things efficiently and instantaneously with the cursor keys just happens to be one of the main advantages of the current workflow. And that action almost any user will intuitively grasp, and is used even by the most ardent anti-key shortcuts user. While using the cursor keys to navigate the layer panel is hardly going to be used as often by users. Especially seeing that the industry standards (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign) also avoid the cursor keys to navigate the layer stack, and most users will be accustomed to that behaviour (whether we like this or not!).

As for your 30.000 layers case: Have you ever tried navigating a long list with just cursor keys? It is slow and cumbersome. Using the mouse is much faster and precise in those cases anyway.

More importantly:
  • You still (after me asking you twice now) have not demonstrated that your suggested workflow would be more efficient and faster than the current one. Yours still takes more key strokes. With a mouse-only approach yours also takes more clicks and often many more mouse actions.
  • And you have not given any rebuttal or response to my point that many users do NOT want to use keyboard shortcuts at all. How do we switch conveniently back to the main view without risking deselecting the layer(s) we just selected in the layer panel and without being forced to precisely click very specific small GUI areas, and/or panning and/or zooming out the main view? This is not important to you, it seems, since you do not work that way. But many people do. This must be addressed first and foremost!
As long as your proposed new workflow cannot address these two points in a satisfactory fashion, your method will remain more long-winded, more prone to selection errors when switching back to the main view with the mouse), and require more key presses, as well as be predominantly keyboard oriented.

And this will lead quite possibly to user frustration (which was never the case before, and only started with the inclusion of it in the previous version). Even Krita users have submitted a bug a while ago (2012) which is related to the cursor keys being used as a way to navigate the layers in the layer panel, and they thought it was a bug - since they wanted to move the layer content, NOT navigate the layers!

Less efficient, and slower: how can that be called progress or improvement?
/*---------------------------------------------*/
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