Page Layout

[5ar5renko]

As you can see, on PL web site, just right of the picture says:
1. Image/Photo processing
2. Vector graphic
3. DTP / Layout / Text
...

[Herbert123]

I believe we can all benefit from a number of additional dtp and vector related features/improvements, but I feel that trying to make PL compete with Quark, InDesign, or even Scribus would be missing the mark.

Besides, it would fragment the app's development - there are only two developers working on PL.

But again, I think PL is quite close to Freehand in terms of capabilities. Just missing a couple of things. It would be good enough for most dtp tasks in that case.

I would love to see better web export options that tie into the layer export (now that we are talking about wishes). And a way for us users to script our own tools, or something comparable. The lack of scripting is PL's Achilles' heel at this point.

[mwenz]

... InDesing, lets say, doesn't support TIF or even PSD layers (and Photoshop is Adobe's native application), it opens PDF's like pictures (you can't ungroup the objects), and so on. Not to talk about using RAM. Managing text or vectors, or bitmap is different among these three Adobe's applications. They are not orgamized well at all.
Using only one application to finish the job is far more useful: speed, no problems with supporting/importing any kind of files...

Doesn't support TIFFs? I use ID nearly everyday (along with QXP, PP, and others). Never had an issue with TIFFs.

And why should ID support PSD layers? While QuarkXpress can "manage" PSD layers (in the sense of turning them on or off), I have never used that capability.

In another post you mention that using 2 or 3 applications is troublesome. Why? How? Have you ever done layout day after day? I have since 1989. I don't find using an image application, or paint, or whatever application, for what it is best at and using a layout application to bring those elements together troublesome in the slightest.

[5ar5renko]

@mwenz: I ment TIFF and PSD layers. Why is it important? You can use one picture many times into DTP aplication with just changing layers. If you don't use this capability it does not mean that somebody else doesn't use it either. It is very helpful and I use it very often.
I am also in DTP business for 25+ years and, yes, it is very time consuming and sometimes nerves consuming having troubles with more than one opened application doing something in one application, something else in second, then in some other, and so on... Import picture form PS into PM (nowadays into ID) and after sometime you realize that you've made a mistake, and then again into PS to correct it, then comes same thing with AI or FH or Xara, Corel, cycling from first to second, then to third one...
This way mistakes can be easily done.

[mwenz]

...But again, I think PL is quite close to Freehand in terms of capabilities...

In what way is PL like the good ol' Freehand? Asking a serious question.

I will admit that I rarely, if ever, use PL for drawing vector objects. I use it so little that here's a question. Exactly how does one draw vector objects without creating a new layer for every jot and tittle?

[photoken]

Exactly how does one draw vector objects without creating a new layer for every jot and tittle?

Hold down the Shift key when using the freehand vector drawing tool, or hold down Ctrl+Shift when using the curve creation tool. Doesn't work when drawing lines. The Help file explains this.

[bkh]

I will admit that I rarely, if ever, use PL for drawing vector objects. I use it so little that here's a question. Exactly how does one draw vector objects without creating a new layer for every jot and tittle?

You can also merge vector layers (Layout -> Vector -> Merge Marked Vector Layers) – the downside is that in PL, every shape (subpath) has to have the same fill and line colour, line style etc. (Imo, there's nothing bad about having separate layers for each vector object – just organise them in layer groups.)

Cheers

Burkhard.

[mwenz]

I will admit that I rarely, if ever, use PL for drawing vector objects. I use it so little that here's a question. Exactly how does one draw vector objects without creating a new layer for every jot and tittle?

You can also merge vector layers (Layout -> Vector -> Merge Marked Vector Layers) – the downside is that in PL, every shape (subpath) has to have the same fill and line colour, line style etc. (Imo, there's nothing bad about having separate layers for each vector object – just organise them in layer groups.)

Cheers

Burkhard.

A typical vector drawing for me would have hundreds (or more) of separate lines. In what I use (a few different applications) I do organize into layers. In a typical drawing, though, I will not likely have more than 10-15 layers. I simply cannot fathom the slowdown I would face using PL for such things. Having to merge down precisely by color? Unusable for me. All that (and more) plus the nightmare of editing various lines or filled elements. Heck, even for a little callout and an arrow head on a line or two, I wouldn't use PL.

And separate layers per text element and no ability (that I can see) of having them on the same layer?

Nah. I'll use PL for images. I'll use anything else for compositing or laying out those images.

[Herbert123]

...But again, I think PL is quite close to Freehand in terms of capabilities...

In what way is PL like the good ol' Freehand? Asking a serious question.

I will admit that I rarely, if ever, use PL for drawing vector objects. I use it so little that here's a question. Exactly how does one draw vector objects without creating a new layer for every jot and tittle?

Well, compare Illustrator for example. Every object/shape you draw in Illustrator adds a new path object in the layer pane. Pretty much identical behaviour as in Photoline - the only difference is that in Photoline the user has to manually group those path objects.

Freehand merely hides the sub paths by not displaying the individual paths in the layer pane - they behave identically, btw: try joining two paths in Freehand, and only one coloured composite path will be the result. Same as in Photoline and Illustrator. I find path control through the layer pane much easier in both Photoline and Illustrator - at least with more complex projects it is easier to find and select what you need. And, to be honest, the layer panel in Freehand is a bit of a joke compared to Photoline - in Photoline I can set the preview icon to "layer", so even the smallest detail shapes are prominently visible and identifiable.

And in Photoline I can furthermore choose to have the path rendered as pixels at the document's native resolution, which is gold for screen design, AND snap vector objects automatically or per shape to the pixel grid - like Fireworks!

Both Freehand and Photoline (and InkScape) allow you to use the anchor selection tool to drag paths - something Illustrator could not do for a long time (at least, as far as I know it cannot be done as easily in Illustrator CS6 without plugins). But in Photoline the full shape changes and provides a better preview rather than just the outline.

Snapping in Photoline and Freehand is pretty much identical. Photoline's snapping is arguably better since visual cues are given as well (at least in my opinion). With overlapping objects Photoline will highlight the path you are snapping to - brilliant! Especially when I am working with multiple shapes that have the same fill and line colours set. Forget Freehand - it becomes almost impossible to tell what you are snapping to exactly.

I have worked with very complex 2d game levels in Photoline (consisting of thousands of vector objects), and it works very well - better in my opinion than the same project in Illustrator and InkScape (believe me, I tried). I preferred how Photoline forces the user to work in a more organized manner. And Photoline allows us to apply all those snazzy adjustment layers, layer masks, and layer effects to vector objects as well, creating a very flexible environment to work in. Freehand just cannot compare in that regard either.

One personal favourite feature of Photoline is the rather large anchor and handle points - on my 2560x1440 27" screens with a Wacom those are truly a joy to work with compared to Illustrator (horrendous) and Freehand's tiny handles and points.

Some of the behaviour in Photoline regarding vector editing is somewhat weird compared to other packages: for example, line segments can be converted to either curved or straight ones with the convert vector points tool by clicking on a line segment. I like how most of the vector path editing is combined in one tool.

On the other hand some essential tools ARE missing. Knife tool, easy multiple duplicate function (though actions can be used), variable stroke widths, inset/outset path tool... These would be very welcome.

Also, the brothers really have to add an option that we can select and drag objects in one action - at the very least this should be an option. Currently we are forced to first select an object, and then move it. This becomes extremely tiresome when working with layouts.

[photoken]

Both Freehand and Photoline (and InkScape) allow you to use the anchor selection tool to drag paths - something Illustrator could not do for a long time (at least, as far as I know it cannot be done as easily in Illustrator CS6 without plugins).

???

In Illustrator CS5, you use the Direct Selection Tool to drag either a path segment or an anchor point.

[photoken]

I preferred how Photoline forces the user to work in a more organized manner.

Both Illustrator and CorelDraw happily continue to add newly created vector objects to the same layer until you manually create a new layer to hold subsequently created objects. PL works just the opposite -- blithely adding each object as its own layer until you manually combine the objects into a single layer. I much prefer the method used by AI and CDR.

This leads me to a request for PL -- an option in the Tool Properties of the vector tools to set the creation of vector objects onto the existing layer. Having to hold down the Ctrl key (or the Ctrl+Shift key) does work, but is more cumbersome than setting that option.

[Hoogo]

Both Illustrator and CorelDraw happily continue to add newly created vector objects to the same layer until you manually create a new layer to hold subsequently created objects. PL works just the opposite -- blithely adding each object as its own layer until you manually combine the objects into a single layer. I much prefer the method used by AI and CDR.

For vector shapes there's a tool option to draw into the current layer, but it's missing for vector lines.

[bkh]

This leads me to a request for PL -- an option in the Tool Properties of the vector tools to set the creation of vector objects onto the existing layer. Having to hold down the Ctrl key (or the Ctrl+Shift key) does work, but is more cumbersome than setting that option.

You'd need more than that – currently, PL adds new points to the current path when you just click. There is no way of telling PL that the vector path is "complete". I wouldn't mind changing the UI in this regard, though (ending a path by hitting "return" or by clicking the start point again or …) – indeed, it happens to me often enough that I add points to a vector path when really I want to create a new vector layer and another vector layer happens to be selected.

Cheers

Burkhard.

[Martin Huber]

I will admit that I rarely, if ever, use PL for drawing vector objects. I use it so little that here's a question. Exactly how does one draw vector objects without creating a new layer for every jot and tittle?

Aside from the terms used I see no real difference between PhotoLine and Illustrator (I don't know the latest versions and I am no Illustrator expert): In PhotoLine every drawing operation adds a new vector layer to the active group, and in Illustrator every drawing operation adds a new vector object to the active layer.

What am I missing?

Martin

[mwenz]

Hello Martin,

Difference? Aside from not being able to have different colored line objects on a single layer? Aside from having several hundred layers of individual objects that are difficult to organize? Not much.

When I do technical drawings, I organize sub parts into their own layers. This is an easy way to turn off/on these sub-parts for creating breakaway enlargements or cut-away parts of the drawings. Some of those lines will be different colors but reside on the same layers.

Single-sided fliers and two-page brochures. These are the only small documents that I even consider doing in the vector application of my choice...when I have a choice because often times the work has to be turned over in a specific format. Whenever possible, I avoid Illustrator like the plague preferring to use Xara Designer Pro. While some of this work can be pretty much described as "designing by the seat of the pants," where one is altering text on the fly and arranging items into a pleasing whole, it is difficult for my mind to use PL for it.

Martin, I do like your application as one of the great image editing applications (I still have to use another application for duotone work). But for myself, vector and technical drawing work simply isn't intuitive as other vector drawing applications and, more importantly, as quick to use for what should be simple work.

Thank you, Mike