Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
User avatar
NoSi
Betatester
Posts: 984
Joined: Mon 07 Jan 2008 19:52
Location: Braunschweig

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by NoSi » Fri 11 Oct 2019 10:28

Ich bin erklärter Fan der „Web → dynamischen Animation“. Damit lassen sich ziemlich flott animinerte GIFs „zusammennageln“, die mit anderen Tools signifikant aufwändiger erstellt werden müssten.

(1) In der aktuellen Beta wirkt der Dialog dafür im „dark mode“ beim ersten Offnen (wenn keine Spur drin ist) unvollständig, weil es nach unten keine sichtbare Dialog-Grenze gibt. Die Anzeigezone (links) ist beim Öffnen hell, wird aber beim ersten Abspielen dunkel und bleibt es dann auch.

(2) Keine Ahnung, ob das schon immer so ist, doch habe ich gerade (auf dem Laptop) das Fehlen des „maximieren“ Buttons im Dialog bedauert. Weil es in W10 keine definierten „Zupfel-Ecken“ mehr gibt, ist das manuelle Hin- und Hergerutsche der Dialog-Größe nervtötend.

(3) Aktuell beschäftige ich mich intensiver mit „webp“ und bin dabei über diese Seite gestolpert: https://www.rgb-labs.com/gimp-156-anima ... webp-apng/

Spontan habe ich eine Animation als webp exportiert (Datei → Export → Export → webp). Was grundsätzlich funktionierte, außer, dass halt keine Animation, sondern lediglich ein Stapel Bilder angezeigt wurde :lol: → völlig ok, ist ja schon öfter mal passiert, dass in der Aufzählung der Neuerungen eine coole Funktion vergessen wurde, deshalb war's den Versuch wert.

Ist diesbezüglich evtl. was geplant? Ehrlicherweise habe ich keinen Überblick über Tools dafür und welcher Aufwand das dann wäre.
Screencasts zu Photoline: http://www.buoa.de • Win 10x64 / PL64, immer und ausschließlich die aktuellste Beta-Version.

User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by Herbert123 » Fri 11 Oct 2019 19:47

NoSi wrote:
Thu 03 Oct 2019 19:18
Herbert123 wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 18:19
G'MIC works fine now (at least, for Windows - not sure about Mac?)

For those who wish to test this:
[…]
That is it! Explore 397 high-quality effects and filters, and have some fun!
Did this exactly in a portable installation Win10x64. Does not do anything. I am asked for the transfer mode (original, all layers rendered, layer) but regardless to my selection, it returnes to Photoline. No Dialog is opened.

Is possibly a special Dot-Net package required?
Just tested the latest version of the paindotnet G'MIC in PhotoLine, and it refuses to work. I checked the GitHub page, and it seems some changes to the com/clipboard were made by the author, which may have broke the compatibility with PhotoLine.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait

User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by Herbert123 » Fri 11 Oct 2019 20:13

NoSi wrote:
Fri 11 Oct 2019 10:28
Ich bin erklärter Fan der „Web → dynamischen Animation“. Damit lassen sich ziemlich flott animinerte GIFs „zusammennageln“, die mit anderen Tools signifikant aufwändiger erstellt werden müssten.
My opinion on the Dynamic Animation tool is that it needs to be removed, gets a complete overhaul, and is integrated with the main canvas, rather than a separated window which is unrelated to the rest of PhotoLine. To me this part of PhotoLine feels very outdated, and not even a real integral part of it: as if it is a separate piece of software. And it doesn't even have the most basic requirements of an animation utility which is timeline scrubbing with a live preview, or setting keyframes visually.

The SWF output support should be removed, since support for swf is ending / already ended in many apps.

Don't get me wrong: I love working in PhotoLine, but this Dynamic Animation tool and the animated layers option feel like they are relics from the 80s/90s. They degrade PhotoLine as a design application (sorry, my honest opinion) which is a high-level design tool otherwise. Anyone used to the animation timelines in any other image editor with a timeline will just walk away shaking their heads after seeing this Dynamic Animation dialog/functionality.

If PhotoLine would get a properly integrated keyframe timeline like the one in Krita, I would be over the moon, though. But it opens a whole new can of worms. It sound so easy, but is actually quite involved to pull off (just think about performance issues, caching, preview rendering of heavy fx processing, etc.)

For quick GIF animations I use OpenToonz nowadays. Might seem overkill, but works very quick and is efficient, even for simple GIF animation editing and creation. And its timeline/Xsheet is joy to work with.

I apologize for sounding like a harsh critic: it is because PhotoLine is a so well conceived and pro-level image editor, and the Web menu's animation options feel extremely outdated and clunky in comparison to the rest of the software.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait

Ist-da
Mitglied
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed 03 Feb 2016 10:15

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by Ist-da » Sat 12 Oct 2019 15:28

Das Datum (Mi 13 Feb 2019 05:46 ) unter dem die neue Testversion 21.40b9 bei mir erscheint verwirrt mich etwas. :?:

chrischa
Mitglied
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu 19 Jul 2012 12:02

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by chrischa » Sat 12 Oct 2019 16:47

Ist-da wrote:
Sat 12 Oct 2019 15:28
Das Datum (Mi 13 Feb 2019 05:46 ) unter dem die neue Testversion 21.40b9 bei mir erscheint verwirrt mich etwas. :?:
Warum? Ist ja nicht die aktuelle Beta ;-)
Photoline 22 unter Windows 10/64 Bit

User avatar
NoSi
Betatester
Posts: 984
Joined: Mon 07 Jan 2008 19:52
Location: Braunschweig

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by NoSi » Tue 22 Oct 2019 10:25

Herbert123 wrote:
Fri 11 Oct 2019 19:47
[…]
Just tested the latest version of the paindotnet G'MIC in PhotoLine, and it refuses to work. I checked the GitHub page, and it seems some changes to the com/clipboard were made by the author, which may have broke the compatibility with PhotoLine.
Thanks for testing and informing.
Screencasts zu Photoline: http://www.buoa.de • Win 10x64 / PL64, immer und ausschließlich die aktuellste Beta-Version.

User avatar
NoSi
Betatester
Posts: 984
Joined: Mon 07 Jan 2008 19:52
Location: Braunschweig

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by NoSi » Tue 22 Oct 2019 11:14

Herbert123 wrote:
Fri 11 Oct 2019 20:13
NoSi wrote:
Fri 11 Oct 2019 10:28
Ich bin erklärter Fan der „Web → dynamischen Animation“. Damit lassen sich ziemlich flott animinerte GIFs „zusammennageln“, die mit anderen Tools signifikant aufwändiger erstellt werden müssten.
My opinion on the Dynamic Animation tool is that it needs to be removed, gets a complete overhaul, […]
I love the current solution especially because it is as it is. For shure there are more sophisticated methods possible. But the advantage of the existing version is it's simplicity. You can create very fast results that are much harder to achieve with supposedly more modern tools.

I agree, that "SWF" is no relevant output format anymore. Therefore I asked if there are efforts regarding animated webp-export.

I do not expect Photoline to be a "perfect in all design categories tool". I simply love PL because its ability to offer a lot of solutions without the need of switching to another tool. Therefore, I do accept that some of it's functions may seem out-dated. But as I can see in other areas the ostensivly "outdated" tools are the most used ones. Because the stand out for their simplicity in use an speed in creating results.

To be honest: PL is not my favorite because of its charming interface or trailblazing options (even if it does offer them from my point of view every now and then). PL is my all in one swiss army knife tool for all types of graphical jobs to do. Although a hammer does not have a particularly attractive appearance, it is the prerequisite for many exceptional and outstanding buildings. And this are the targets and best criteria for a daily use tool, aren't they?

For shure I am always excited about new functions an modernizations of PL. But as a developer I can see how much love to details and comprehension for needs is coded into PL. It is impossible to keep all areas always "in front of all competitors". The guys as Computerinsel have my deep admiration and respect, because they develop a tool for their users and stay as well in touch with future as with the history of the needs of their community.

I can not see an advantage in removing a working function from PL as long as there is no replacement in sight. As we all know, dynamic animations are no major target of PL. But "you can do" if you want and reuse in a very effective and simple way the work you have done with PL up to the point where you want "a little bit motion".

This is from my point of view one of the outstanding integral advantages of PL: one tool, manifold results.
Screencasts zu Photoline: http://www.buoa.de • Win 10x64 / PL64, immer und ausschließlich die aktuellste Beta-Version.

User avatar
Gerhard Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3762
Joined: Mon 18 Nov 2002 15:30
Location: Bad Gögging

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by Gerhard Huber » Wed 23 Oct 2019 10:34

Wir haben hier über das Thema "Dynamische Animation" gesprochen.
Da ich sie selbst relativ häufig nutze, werden wir sie im Programm lassen.
Ich sehe das so, dass es durchaus ein Problem ist, die Bedienung zu verstehen. Wenn man es aber geschafft hat, kann man durchaus ansehnliche Animationen schnell und einfach erstellen.
SWF ist Vergangenheit, das ist auch klar. So wie ich das sehe, gibt es im Netz mittlerweile nur oder auch wieder animierte GIFs und "richtige Videos". Ich habe noch keine Seite gesehen, die eines der anderen "modernen" Animationsformate, wie z.B. WebP verwendet.
Daher werde ich das vorerst nicht einbauen.
Daher bleibt das animierte GIF und unter Windows AVI (ich denke macOS kann auch etwas "natives" MOV?) zum Speichern.

User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by Herbert123 » Thu 24 Oct 2019 11:43

Gerhard Huber wrote:
Wed 23 Oct 2019 10:34
Ich sehe das so, dass es durchaus ein Problem ist, die Bedienung zu verstehen. Wenn man es aber geschafft hat, kann man durchaus ansehnliche Animationen schnell und einfach erstellen.
I investigated PhotoLine's Dynamic Animation a bit deeper. To my surprise I find it quite powerful, even if the GUI needs a lot of love. I was not aware of subanimations, which is actually a powerful animation option only found in more accomplished animation software. And even time curves are supported!

So, I had to swallow some of my earlier statements. I apologize: the core functionality is actually quite good.

Having said all this, Some of the icons are hard to understand. The "new Animation" icon makes no sense at all (info icon).

Many of the GUI issues are related to discoverability. For example, although I had tried to work with this timeline before, the keyframes function I never understood, because the keyframe indicators (1) only display when a track is selected, and (B) they are so tiny and hollow that I never noticed them before: they were invisible to my eyes. The subanimations are hidden beneath a right-mouse click of a track. The animation controls are almost non-existent: only a play button located in the far bottom left.

Playing a track in the main view is supported, but the timeline scrubber is SOOO tiny that I did not notice it before until today, and I had the hardest time trying to click and drag it with the mouse. All the controls are so small that working with them on a modern screen becomes an exercise in patience. :-)

As I see it, three important changes would push the Dynamic Animation function into the realms of greatness:

1) remove the tiny preview, and use the main view to play the full animation (this already works for each independent track).
2) add a main timeline scrubber to play all animations simultaneously in the main view. The view and the main timeline scrubber should be synchronized, just like in every other animation capable software. No more small preview playing, please.
3) expose the keyframe functionality by introducing nice keyframe indicators which can be dragged, copied, and deleted in the tracks. Expose these keyframes for all tracks, not just the one selected.

If these are implemented, and the GUI is polished a bit (as well as the terms used changed to the proper English animation terminology), you have a really good timeline for general animation in PhotoLine, and definitely a new important feature that which will attract new users.

All the core functionality is already present. It just needs to be polished and implemented a bit better to improve the user experience.

I prepared a mockup of an improved new polished timeline with notes:
http://www.wizzydev.com/pl/animation_ti ... mments.png
http://www.wizzydev.com/pl/animation_ti ... mments.png

Note: the icons are a work in progress. I haven't created a new icon for the track spreadsheet yet.

What do you guys think? Would this be a lot of work?
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait

Andre
Mitglied
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat 29 Sep 2007 14:08

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by Andre » Sat 26 Oct 2019 17:54

Beim Thema Animation noch eine Bitte:

Unter Win10 in Verbindung mit einem HDPI Monitor sind die Icons doch etwas klein
[attachment=0]Unbenannt.jpg[/attachment
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Gerhard Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3762
Joined: Mon 18 Nov 2002 15:30
Location: Bad Gögging

Re: Neue Testversion 21.40b9

Post by Gerhard Huber » Sun 27 Oct 2019 06:30

Das ist in der aktuellen Beta schon behoben.