Once more: Linux?

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
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Herbert123
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Once more: Linux?

Post by Herbert123 »

Refer to this survey: http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016

56,033 developers responded. 21.7% works on Linux: 12,159 users.
Mac is 26.2% - which means Linux is used by developers almost as much as Mac.

The current trend is that Linux is used more and more by developers as many (myself included) are growing very tired of Microsoft, and Mac is not an option for me because of... well, figure it out :-)

Currently, there is NO professional image editor available on Linux. GIMP is available, as is Krita. Krita is great for professional digital painting, but not an image editor. GIMP is limited, awkward, and development is akin to a slug moving in mud.

Many of these developers are looking for a professional alternative - PhotoLine IS that alternative. If Photoline becomes available as a Linux native version, then you will have NO competition! There is literally nothing out there!

Let's be very conservative, and suppose you sell only 1000 copies of a Linux version of PhotoLine: 59,000 euro earned. And Linux is very popular in the movie making business as well.

I installed Windows 10 at the moment. If I had had access to a Linux version of PhotoLine, I would have installed Linux as my dominant work OS. I am aware PhotoLine works in WINE, but it just is not the same. I really am convinced the time is NOW for a native Linux version of PhotoLine. Marketing will be easy: just pronounce on all the important Linux sites and forums that Linux FINALLY receives a professional image editor.

Thoughts? Discussion?
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System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
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photoken
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

Please drop this, already. :roll:

Your survey results show that even given the extremely limited audience (developers), over 50% of the them are using Windows....

There is no one "Linux" -- it's plagued by several, often conflicting, implementations. As a whole, the "Linux" desktop users are probably less than about 2.5% of the population, and the problems reported in user forums of programs which offer "Linux" versions reveals that those programs need to devote resources to work/debug for each of those implementations of "Linux".

A waste of development time, IMO.

Do not be deceived by rabid "Linux" fans who, when asked, will always say "Oh sure. I need a native Linux version of such-and-such." Those people are very much an insignificant minority.
Ken
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Herbert123
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Herbert123 »

Yes, we have been here before.

I do have to add one thing: you are incorrect in saying that Linux software requires support for different versions. Nowadays App Images work on any modern Linux. http://appimage.org/
So that would take care of most compatibility issues - as easy to run as on Windows and Mac. I speak from experience: Krita works out-of-the-box on my Linux systems.

And as you can tell from the above numbers, Linux is not an insignificant minority in the world of developers - more than 1/5 run Linux. And Photoline IS an attractive application from the viewpoint of developers (speaking for myself). (Although one or two essential output features are still missing to make things much more efficient...)

The internet is browsed by around 2.6% Linux users. Of all computer users worldwide, Linux users comprise of a conservative estimate of 88,000,000 people. (https://www.linuxcounter.net/) There is no competition for PhotoLine in that market - except from GIMP. NOTHING that comes close to a professional image editor, however!

I have said this before: I'd rather compete in a market with millions of users and have (almost) no competition, rather than in the Windows and Mac markets that are saturated with competitors - and competitors with a lot of marketing power, such as Serif with their Affinity products.

Those "rabid Linux fans" probably number in the tens of thousands. If only a part of them invests in a PhotoLine Linux version (and I am rather certain they will to prove a point) it will be good money for the Hubers.

Of course, it all depends on how difficult it would be for the Hubers to create a build for Linux - I have no idea about their development tools, and whether they can be used to compile on Linux. As it stands, we have a chicken and the egg situation: many Linux users are vocal about the lack of a good image editor, and as long as no-one takes the first step to create a high-level image editor, we will never know how worthwhile it would be for the developer.

Well, how about a kickstarter? No risk taken, potential high gains.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote: No risk taken, potential high gains.
Wrong and wrong.

Much risk because of the time wasted in trying to accommodate all the varieties of "Linux" instead of adding to PL's image editing features.

No gains, either, because (relatively speaking) no one is bothering to use "Linux" on their desktops; and not even all of the few developers you mention want/need an image editor.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote: Much risk because of the time wasted in trying to accommodate all the varieties of "Linux" instead of adding to PL's image editing features.
? I just explained App Images take care of that problem. App Images were conceived to tackle exactly that issue! No more dealing with all the Linux variants. Even Linus Torvald recognized that users just want to run an application without all the hassle, and App Images were born. I run Krita now on various Linux versions without problems - one file, just double-click, and presto: it works! No installation necessary. No source compiling.
photoken wrote: No gains, either, because (relatively speaking) no one is bothering to use "Linux" on their desktops; and not even all of the few developers you mention want/need an image editor.
1) I mentioned this in regards to a Kickstarter.

2) ~2.6% of the internet browsing is done with Linux (which implies quite large number of users with Linux desktops). And again, with 80 million Linux users AND NEGLIGIBLE COMPETITION even if only a quarter percentage gets a PhotoLine license, we are still talking about 20,000 licenses (over a million euro).

A Kickstarter could be an option to test the waters for interest. If it succeeds, the Hubers could hire a Linux developer to do the work for them. No risk in this case, except spending some time on doing a good Kickstarter.
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photoken
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

Herbert123 wrote:
photoken wrote: Much risk because of the time wasted in trying to accommodate all the varieties of "Linux" instead of adding to PL's image editing features.
I just explained App Images take care of that problem.
Sounds like yet another layer of complexity attempting to cure the fundamental problems with "Linux". It's yet more things to go wrong....
Herbert123 wrote:
photoken wrote: No gains, either, because (relatively speaking) no one is bothering to use "Linux" on their desktops; and not even all of the few developers you mention want/need an image editor.
2) ~2.6% of the internet browsing is done with Linux (which implies quite large number of users with Linux desktops).
Nope. It implies nothing of the sort because that does not measure the number of unique "Linux" users, only that the same users browse the Internet multiple times. And that 2.6% is an insignificant number to devote development resources to, anyway.
Herbert123 wrote:A Kickstarter could be an option to test the waters for interest. (...)
Ugh! And double ugh!! :(
A needless and useless waste of time away from improving PL's image editing capabilities. And for what purpose? Just to try to stop the whining of the 38 people on the planet who use "Linux" on the desktop?

The simple facts are that "Linux" is a failed desktop operating system, and there's no good reason not to use Win10. Now, some people are rabid Microsoft haters and some people get their kicks spending their time customizing their version of "Linux", but their constant attempts to justify having other people waste time on developing for "Linux" doesn't change those facts.

In short, stop drinking the "Linux" Kool-Aid, relax, and just enjoy using Win10. :D
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by bkh »

Herbert123 wrote:Refer to this survey: http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016

56,033 developers responded. 21.7% works on Linux: 12,159 users.
Mac is 26.2% - which means Linux is used by developers almost as much as Mac.
Just wondering: why would a normal developer need a professional image editor? What's the proportion of web developers in need of such an image editor amongst Linux users? Stack Overflow is mostly about programming, anyway.
Herbert123 wrote:Let's be very conservative, and suppose you sell only 1000 copies of a Linux version of PhotoLine: 59,000 euro earned. And Linux is very popular in the movie making business as well.
I doubt that you could hire an experienced Linux developer to do the porting for that amount of money in Germany. And you'd need somebody to continue to support the Linux version as well. (I doubt that the Hubers have time to spare to address yet another platform.)
Herbert123 wrote: I installed Windows 10 at the moment. If I had had access to a Linux version of PhotoLine, I would have installed Linux as my dominant work OS. I am aware PhotoLine works in WINE, but it just is not the same. I really am convinced the time is NOW for a native Linux version of PhotoLine. Marketing will be easy: just pronounce on all the important Linux sites and forums that Linux FINALLY receives a professional image editor.
Most people I know use Linux because they are convinced of the free software concept and refuse to pay for software. I can't even recall an example of any successful commercial Linux software (but, admittedly, I don't know the Linux software market very well).

Cheers

Burkhard.
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photoken
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

If a newer "platform" for PL is to be considered, it makes the most sense for it to be a "PhotoLine Lite" that is offered for free (or at most $5) on the Microsoft Store.

It would have very limited features, of course, but should appeal to users who just want something simple to make their cell phone photos look good before posting their photos on the Web.

Current estimates are that Windows 10 is installed on 400 million devices, with the goal of being installed on 1 billion devices in a couple more years. That's the market to get a share of, not the few people using "Linux", IMO.
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Herbert123 »

I can only speak for the user groups I am familiar with. One such group are web developers, another visual effects artists in VFX studios. The majority of VFX studios run Linux, and the commercial software consists of applications like Maya, Nuke, and Houdini. These are the industry standard applications used in film and broadcast visual effects. Other high-level software is for example DaVinci Resolve.

One of the sole reasons for many VFX artists in those studios to dual-boot into Windows is Photoshop. In 3d and VFX related forums I regularly see users that work in that industry ask for Linux ports of a Windows/Mac image editor.

I work freelance in that industry, although most of my work is web/app related. I also create small games for the web and mobile. And I teach web related stuff as well. From my experience with other developers and VFX artists I can tell you that many people working in these industries would welcome a good image editor working on Linux.

App images solve the issue with Linux compatibility - they work without a hitch in all modern Linux variants. Download, double-click, and it runs. Done. No discussion here, Ken. They work, and installation is easier than most Windows software.

I run a dual boot system currently. The only reason for me to use Windows at this point is really because of InDesign, and testing websites/games. My intention is to run Windows in a virtual box at some point next year, and forget about the dual boot.

...about Windows 10...

*Warning Windows 10 rant*
I installed Windows 10 a week ago, because Microsoft is choking updates for Windows 7 - I installed a fresh version of Windows 7 SP1, and it categorically refused to install critical updates. It is a known issue. Some tech writers have decided MS is doing this on purpose to force more Win7 users to update to Windows 10. I suppose I fell for this scheme, because I decided to shell out for Windows 10 (no longer freely available). Not exactly inexpensive (especially seeing that Apple provides updates for free).

Installing proved to be HECK. First time around, Windows 10 installer had no issues formatting my Revodrive SSD raid PCI card, and it installed. The desktop appeared, and Win10 decided to update everything. All good, except that it ALSO decided to install a Nvidia display driver that BROKE the system. I then had to reformat the Revodrive, and install Win10 once more. NO GO - it refused to install. I was about to give up, when I decided to first install Windows 7 again on the same drive (which had no issues formatting and preparing the partition), and then I could convince Win10 installation to format and install on that drive again. Nuts. Totally nuts. (And this does not include the issues getting the partition to boot correctly in the first place in both Win7 and 10 - lots of BIOS tweaking).

Of course, after installing Windows 10 for a second time I was prepared for the automatic updates debacle, and I had unplugged the network cable. I downloaded the newest Nvidia video card driver on my old Win 7 tablet, and copied it to a Kingston USB pen drive that I had just purchased for these installation tasks. Too bad, Windows 10 refused to work with that USB pen drive. It took me two hours before I figured this out, all the while I was thinking the pen drive got corrupted somehow. I still had an old pen drive, and used that one instead - and Win10 did recognize it. More time wasted. Remember, that pen drive worked on all the other machines - except the new WIN10 installation. Sigh.

All in all it took me the better part of TWO days to get Windows 10 installed and up and running. Compared, Linux mint installed within an hour, and everything worked - even a high resolution screen. Installing the Nvidia drivers was just as easy as on Windows 10.

Next problem: Windows 10 refuses to work with my third display. Windows 7 had no issues, but Windows 10 does, of course. Double sigh. I have been unable to fix this so far. Nothing works. It might be a cable problem, I've read. But why does it work in Win 7, and not in Win 10?

Another reason I am not that happy with Windows 10: the privacy settings and problems. Oh. My. Gods. Seriously? After booting into the Windows 10 desktop, I was confronted with a start menu just BRIMMING with junk and adverts for MS office, and other stuff. Now, I would expect that from a free update - but I PAYED for this upgrade! And then I discovered that I had to turn off all sorts of personal data sharing stuff all over the place. WOW. And I cannot even turn off the data sharing completely. And Windows 10 keeps bugging me with reminders to turn on SIRI. Yeah, sure.

Did you know that if you use the quick settings for the Windows 10 installation that your machine is used in a peer-to-peer setup so that other users' Win 10 machines download updates through YOUR machine and bandwidth? (At least, that is how I understand it works.) And it will record and upload your use of applications to MS servers. I just do not feel comfortable with that at all.

And my biggest fear is that Windows 10 will at some point in the future stop working again on my machine due to the miserable fact that the automatic updates CANNOT be turned off, or even delayed. The Pro version can at least delay a lethal update until Microsoft fixes it, but what if an update kills my system? This has happened a number of times before with Windows 7, and there at least I had the option to only install updates I really know would not cause issues. Not so in this case. "Just set up a restore point". Yeah, sure. Restore, and that update is installed again. What's the point?

This morning Windows 10 decided to suddenly slow down to a crawl. I mean, it took an hour for Windows to restart, and the second time it took 30 minutes to login to the Windows desktop. No reason for this. Now it works again, and after some research it seems on certain setups the power management may cause these issues intermittently. The solution (hopefully) is to turn power management off, and run in high performance scheme.

An hour ago my machine decided to run at normal speed again, and I turned all the power management stuff off. Let's see how it works out.

In a nutshell: I hate this. I really do. I never objected to Windows before, but this time I am starting to become fed up with Windows. Linux Mint never does this, it just works - and fast. And no privacy issues. More secure as well. Most applications run and feel faster and more responsive in Linux mint than they do in Windows 7 or 10 anyway.

And what is up with that rather bland and ugly Windows 10 interface? The flat styled buttons look messy, and often it is unclear what is clickable and what is not. My wife thinks it's a throwback to the beginning of the nineties of the last century. I agree. Although PhotoLine does look better in Win10 ;-)

Sorry for the rant. I lost a day of work today due to the inexplicable Windows 10 slowdown issue.

More than ever I personally would love to see a Linux version of PhotoLine.
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System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

Well, I stand by my previous comments: there's just not many people using "Linux" on their desktops; and that App Image thingy is yet another layer of complexity on top of the "Linux" swamp to have to troubleshoot when something in an application does not work.

Sorry to hear about your problems with Win10. It definitely sounds like there is something not quite right about your system, especially if you're running some sort of ("Linux"?) dual-boot setup. I upgraded from Win7 to Win10 on two machines: a several years old HP notebook and a one year old Thinkpad without any problems (even re-partitioning the primary SSDs). I realize that doesn't help you, but thought I'd mention it for the sake of balance. :wink:

Not to turn this discussion into a MS discussion, but there are a few things you said that really need to be corrected:
  • You have only yourself to blame for your cost of Win10. After all, you had a full year to get the free upgrade.
  • I searched the Web for "Windows 7 critical updates" and found nothing in the first 5 pages of results about a "known issue" with Win7 refusing to install critical updates.
  • After installing Win10 the Start menu had a few tiles off to one side for getting games, etc., which were easy to delete. I don't think that can reasonably be called "brimming"....
  • The peer-to-peer updates mechanism is also used to distribute "Linux", if I'm not mistaken. At any rate, in Win10 it's easy to limit the P2P to only the computers on your local network or disable it completely.
  • Your statements about "privacy" and "record(ing) and upload(ing) use of applications to MS servers" want to imply that's somehow bad. In reality, it's nothing more than anonymous telemetry data which you can limit or disable. The irony is that that telemetry data which you object to providing to MS is exactly the kind of data that would be used to solve your problems....
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

Oh, and I've got to revisit my great idea about providing a "PhotoLine Lite". Turns out that I'm late to that party :( : Win10's Photos app has the basic, simple things for tweaking a cell phone photo; and Adobe has their free Photoshop Express app in the MS Store which also does the basic things.

Of the two, the Win10 Photos app has a better interface and workflow, but the Photoshop Express has a few more nice adjustments available.

If the developers carefully selected from PL's feature set (and implemented them in the "modern" Win10 User Interface style), it's possible they could create something that's a combination of the best of those two other apps plus a little more. I don't know if it would be worth the effort, though, except that it would be another huge audience to have the name "PhotoLine" in front of.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

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photoken wrote:Well, I stand by my previous comments: there's just not many people using "Linux" on their desktops; and that App Image thingy is yet another layer of complexity on top of the "Linux" swamp to have to troubleshoot when something in an application does not work.
No, you still do not understand how App Images work - they simplify the running of software. The whole point of App Images is that software no longer needs to rely on third-party extensions or libraries. Everything is self-contained. One may say it is preferable over Windows applications that have to rely on a .Net framework that must be installed first before they work.

NO extra layer of complexity is added at all. Krita, for example, works without any extra dependencies. Just download, and run. No need for installation, it just works out of the box. They are also completely portable.

The argument that Linux software is more difficult to run for the average user is done and over with at this point. Just supply an App Image. It really is that simple.
photoken wrote:Sorry to hear about your problems with Win10. It definitely sounds like there is something not quite right about your system, especially if you're running some sort of ("Linux"?) dual-boot setup. I upgraded from Win7 to Win10 on two machines: a several years old HP notebook and a one year old Thinkpad without any problems (even re-partitioning the primary SSDs). I realize that doesn't help you, but thought I'd mention it for the sake of balance. :wink:
I know, the update worked for most users without too many problems and I am happy for you that the update went without a hitch.

There is nothing wrong with my system - it is just that I run some hardware that is not quite so average. And I understand that that will always cause additional work during installation. What I got upset about is that Windows broke the first installation without my intervention (I could not prevent it!), and the power management issues that lost me a day of work today. And a quick search on the web lead me to other users' similar issues. It seems to be a Windows 10 bug on certain systems - but Win 7 and Linux never gave me these strange slowdowns.

Anyway, it seems fixed now: I turned off all power management in Windows 10.
photoken wrote:You have only yourself to blame for your cost of Win10. After all, you had a full year to get the free upgrade.
I ran a rock-solid system for years. I researched my hardware's compatibility with Win 10 and discovered that the update would fail on my hardware (tested by users with the same hardware) - only a complete Win 10 reinstall is possible. I was in the middle of several projects, could not risk the update, and a complete install would be too time consuming.

Besides, you are misreading what I meant: I do not care that I had to pay for the update - I do care that a paid product includes so much junk, privacy concerns, and advertising. But the deal-breaker is that I cannot turn off the automatic updates. Obviously I was aware of this last thing - but having experienced how it bricked my system, made me rethink whether I should have installed Win 10.
photoken wrote:I searched the Web for "Windows 7 critical updates" and found nothing in the first 5 pages of results about a "known issue" with Win7 refusing to install critical updates.
Perhaps you did not use the correct query in Google? "Windows will not update" gives me lots of results. Here is a good article about it (fifth result in Google for me):
http://www.computerworld.com/article/30 ... oblem.html
photoken wrote:After installing Win10 the Start menu had a few tiles off to one side for getting games, etc., which were easy to delete. I don't think that can reasonably be called "brimming"....
I suppose it depends on how the word "few" is defined. I had to turn off and/or uninstall more than ten tiles. At least 7 or 8 were adverts for software.
Besides, I also had to turn off many other settings related to privacy in Windows 10 during installation and afterwards. That did not help either...

Anyway, I was 'somewhat' frustrated with Windows 10 today, so it was just one more drop in the bucket. :wink:
I did warn that I was going to rant a bit :D
photoken wrote:The peer-to-peer updates mechanism is also used to distribute "Linux", if I'm not mistaken. At any rate, in Win10 it's easy to limit the P2P to only the computers on your local network or disable it completely.
Sure, but it is one more default setting, and you and I are knowledgeable enough to do this. Many Windows 10 users will never touch those settings. I just think it should be turned off by default - my opinion, of course.
photoken wrote:Your statements about "privacy" and "record(ing) and upload(ing) use of applications to MS servers" want to imply that's somehow bad. In reality, it's nothing more than anonymous telemetry data which you can limit or disable. The irony is that that telemetry data which you object to providing to MS is exactly the kind of data that would be used to solve your problems.
No, I have an issue that the default settings (express installation) send much more information than raw telemetry data. And I have an issue that I can no longer decide which updates to install - I now run the risk of a half-baked MS update bricking my system. It happened during my first installation. When is the next one going to be? Faulty Windows 7 and 8 updates have wrecked perfectly well working systems before - which is why it is advised to turn automatic updating off for work-critical machines. Unfortunately, the only way to do that in Windows 10 is to pull out the network cable. :(


Anyway... I was in a foul mood when I wrote my rant. Don't take it too seriously :)
But I do appreciate Linux more and more.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by photoken »

Well, my wish during this Holiday Season is that your system will be working well for you! :D (A rant is just a rant, and it's always good to blow off some steam. :wink: )

I still disagree with just about all of your newest comments, but I'll let it go...

To end this side discussion, I'll just say that I agree with you that the default P2P update settings should be to disable the other computers on the Internet portion.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by JulianZI »

Herbert,

do you really think 1000 Linux user will actually buy (I mean buy !) Photoline.

Furthermore - the price of EURO 59 includes VAT and there are transaction fees as well.

I could rather imagine that photoline would make sense on Android. That will become more and more popular and can be implemented in any TV.
A strong DTP application really makes sense here.

But I do not expect that it is actually possible to port.

I would rather
- improve the user experience for MAC users
- redesign the "Bildübersicht"/image overview which is stuck in the late 1900
- recreate the "gallery" to work more as a guide for the inexperienced
- add templates for picture books, now since placeholder are finally there.
- make contracts with picture book printers to promote custom made versions of PhotoLine

Short term - important
* Add a signature to the Windows installer. Does anybody nowadays executes a setup which is not signed?
* Distribute the OSX version in a DMG - not ZIP

A certificate can be purchase very cheaply from comodo, or a bit more expensive but also more reputable from DigiCert.

Regards,

Julian
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Re: Once more: Linux?

Post by Herbert123 »

photoken wrote:Well, my wish during this Holiday Season is that your system will be working well for you! :D (A rant is just a rant, and it's always good to blow off some steam. :wink: )

I still disagree with just about all of your newest comments, but I'll let it go...

To end this side discussion, I'll just say that I agree with you that the default P2P update settings should be to disable the other computers on the Internet portion.
Thanks, Ken.
Since I turned off the power management in Windows 10 I have not experience any issues. With power management activated things would regularly slow down, and hard drives were very slow to restart after they were put to sleep by Windows. No more problems so far. And I found one rather interesting new feature (File History) which I always missed. So things seem to be fine now (finally).

It's always good to have different opinions. Although I still have a feeling PhotoLine would do quite well with Linux users, I agree with everyone here that I'd rather see the Hubers invest their energy in fine-tuning some more aspects of PhotoLine first - especially things like symbols, automated export for web/app design, and a couple more page management tools such as page templates and multiple guide systems.

Besides, I have no idea how hard it would be to compile a Linux version with the current Mac and Windows code base in the first place. I do realize maintaining three OSs probably requires more man power as well.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait