Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Hier diskutieren die Betatester von PhotoLine untereinander und mit den Entwicklern
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Gerhard Huber
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Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by Gerhard Huber » Tue 07 Apr 2020 16:44

Hallo,

es gibt wieder eine neue Testversion 22.40b3.

Windows:
http://www.pl32.com/beta/pl2240b3.zip

Mac OS:
http://www.pl32.com/beta/plx2240b3.zip


Neues:
  • Oberflächenänderungen vorerst abgeschlossen
  • Verwirbelung: Maske steuert nun die Stärke der Verwirbelung und nicht die Überblendungsintensität
  • Diverse Fehlerbehebungen und kleinere Verbesserungen

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shijan
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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by shijan » Tue 07 Apr 2020 18:52

Tabs on mac looks strange again.
22.4 beta3 (tabs are badly visible because no outer pixel edge)
Image

22.4 beta1 (Nice looking tabs, well separated by darker outer pixel line, same as other buttons and elements)
Image

Selection color became almost black instead of native light blue mac color. Looks not too pretty.
ImageImage
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by Gerhard Huber » Wed 08 Apr 2020 05:24

the lines arround the the tabs where removed because of a comment of Juan on b2. There was no comment against it, so we changed it.
Now it's ready until anybody here knows what he wants.

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by Herbert123 » Wed 08 Apr 2020 09:36

There are some real issues with the GUI in this beta.

- icons of toolbar are cut off. Giant icons at a certain tools panel width.
- collapsing a top panel in docked mode causes the bottom panel's toolbar to jump up. It will not stay at the bottom.
- collapsing the bottom docked panel and opening it once more causes both panels to resize.

Basically, the nice docked panel behaviour is unusable now. I cannot collapse a panel without ruining that part of the GUI setup.
Since I use this all the time, I unfortunately had to uninstall b3 which is unusable for me, and re-installed b2. Works fine now.


tool.jpg
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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by Herbert123 » Wed 08 Apr 2020 09:48

Gerhard Huber wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 05:24
the lines arround the the tabs where removed because of a comment of Juan on b2. There was no comment against it, so we changed it.
Now it's ready until anybody here knows what he wants.
Speaking for myself, it is difficult to keep track of singular comments here and there, with many users commenting. I also kinda preferred the B1 version with the lines.

A forum environment isn't the best method to track feature requests. Perhaps it is time to switch to another alternative? Something like https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/, where users may vote on features. This would make it easier for you to decide what work on. Could also be used to distinguish between papercuts, low hanging fruit, and larger feature requests.

Otherwise I think that you, as developers, might be chasing users' wishes without a clear direction.
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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by Juan » Wed 08 Apr 2020 10:19

I'm not sure what theme are you using, but in my case the tabs are perfect now using a dark theme.
Here is my current setup:
Capture.JPG
I have proposed this before that it would looks nicer and the differentiation between enable and disable tabs would have even more contrast without sacrificing the visual noise. On the other hand, it would reduce even more the visual noise while increasing readability:
https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6344 Check my post there about the tab. Sorry I don't know how to link a post directly.
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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by der_fotograf » Wed 08 Apr 2020 10:55

Otherwise I think that you, as developers, might be chasing users' wishes without a clear direction.
That is exactly my impression when I follow these threads. All these kinky wished for a »look« of the software are annoying. It appears to me that people don't use the software to achieve results, but instead stare at the GUI for hours without having any image loaded for real work.

Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by PhilM » Wed 08 Apr 2020 11:24

der_fotograf wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 10:55
Otherwise I think that you, as developers, might be chasing users' wishes without a clear direction.
That is exactly my impression when I follow these threads. All these kinky wished for a »look« of the software are annoying. It appears to me that people don't use the software to achieve results, but instead stare at the GUI for hours without having any image loaded for real work.

Just my 2 cents...
+1
Agree.
Too much talk about the "Look and Feel".
No talk about new Features. Or feature enhancement.
I already mentioned in the past some missing features like align stack, frequency separation, HDR ... I know there is no simple answer to that.

Just my feeling ...

Best regards.

Philippe

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by Juan » Wed 08 Apr 2020 12:00

I can only talk for myself, and yes I do have a lot of proposals about the UI, but not because is fashionista or trendy, I do it because the visual noise is a real issue in UI's. A quick google will let you know. Here is one example: https://www.givegoodux.com/signal-vs-no ... ui-design/

After spending many hours working on the same post-production file in archviz with hundreds of layers, the "messy" look and high contrast elements of the application it starts bothering. Practical example, if you are driving your car with the sun in front of you, the logic is to use the sunshade or sun glasses to decrease that high contrast and minimize the brightness from the sun, the same happens with the UI, if there is too much happening around you it start bothering, and what you need to focus which is your work.

Therefore, my point (you can search all my posts about the reasoning behind making the UI more uniform) is to minimize that high contrast elements that start producing so much background noise that it becomes to start distracting you from what you are doing.

Herbert123, has been generous enough to use his own time to create and mantain a thread about wishes, and I think that every single one of us should post only there to make it easier for the developers to follow what the users wants and need. So I encourage everybody to post only there their own wishes and ideas.
https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4830

Cheers,
Juan

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by e-hahn » Wed 08 Apr 2020 13:46

der_fotograf wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 10:55
That is exactly my impression when I follow these threads. All these kinky wished for a »look« of the software are annoying. It appears to me that people don't use the software to achieve results, but instead stare at the GUI for hours without having any image loaded for real work.

Just my 2 cents...
PhotoLine ist eine grandiose Software, ich arbeite täglich mit ihr, ich möchte sie nicht mehr missen. Dennoch fristet sie ein Nischendasein, findet kaum Beachtung, zumindest im Vergleich zu den anderen.

PhotoLine ist eine Software für kreative, aber genau hier ist das Problem, der erste Eindruck den man gewinnt, der schreckt eher ab.

Ich finde es gut das sich an der Oberfläche was tut, wenn auch langsam. Die anderen machen es sicher besser, aber die haben ja auch eine ganz andere Manpower dahinter, da arbeiten eine ganze menge mehr Leute nur an der GUI.

Persönlich würde ich mir wünschen, das man hier und da weg von von diesen Symbolleisten geht, viele Symbole sehen ohnehin furchtbar aus, vieles kann man hier mit Textbuttons ersetzen, mit einer entsprechenden Gruppierung der Funktionen.

Aber vielleicht sollte man auch erst einmal die Oberfläche etwas besser aufräumen bzw. besser zusammen stellen beim ersten Start von PhotoLine. Startet man PhotoLine das erste mal, ist es ein ziemlich unordentliches verwirrendes Programm was sich einem präsentiert.

Ich finde auch das die Webseite von PhotoLine eine Generalüberholung bedarf. Präsentation ist nun mal alles und im Moment wirkt sie als wäre sie schon 20 Jahre alt.

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by shijan » Wed 08 Apr 2020 16:35

Gerhard Huber wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 05:24
the lines arround the the tabs where removed because of a comment of Juan on b2. There was no comment against it, so we changed it.
Now it's ready until anybody here knows what he wants.
Discussion was about removing blue accent line introduced in beta2, but not about removing all lines around tabs.

In same Neue Testversion 22.40b2 thread i also suggested more simplified grey toolbars for "Adjustment layers".
Image
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by ono » Wed 08 Apr 2020 18:29

shijan wrote:
Tue 07 Apr 2020 18:52
22.4 beta1 (Nice looking tabs, well separated by darker outer pixel line, same as other buttons and elements)
I do agree. So far Beta 1 looks most ... well ... elegant and consistent.
shijan wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 16:35
Discussion was about removing blue accent line introduced in beta2, but not about removing all lines around tabs.
In same Neue Testversion 22.40b2 thread i also suggested more simplified grey toolbars for "Adjustment layers".
That was my impression too. Not sure how we ended up with removing the outline completely.
Gerhard Huber wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 05:24
the lines arround the the tabs where removed because of a comment of Juan on b2. There was no comment against it, so we changed it.
Now it's ready until anybody here knows what he wants.
For the reference this is a link to Juan's comment: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 344#p47208 quote: "1- The extra lighter lines that frames the tab can be taken off. In this way less contrast objects in the panels element are reduced. Therefore, less visual noise."

Indeed there was no feedback, which is regrettable. But if I can give late feedback to Juan's proposed design (see 2 images from link above) - my feedback is - I don't dig it. Avoiding adjectives, the proposal is neither looking platform native (at least not on MacOS) not what is known from other Photo. products from Ad. and Af.

Also I don't buy the arguments of visual noise and too much contrast because if Beta 1 has too much contrast then all macOS has too much contrast too and Apple design is worthless. I will repeat myself, I would love PhotoLine stay as much close to platform (i.e. macOS, but Windows too) look & feel as it used to be for many years. Why? Because it is NEUTRAL choice. I wish we stop listening to "these kinky wished for a »look«" asking for a CUSTOM look that has superior looking scrollbars to what Apple or Microsoft poorly designed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I many who complain are usually Windows users using custom Windows themes - something that Microsoft abandoned, but some people obsessively must use their own themes.

Also I will again praise the effort of developers that are really listening their users, even it might now work out well in the end. This should not be criticized. This can be very demotivating and they simply don't deserve that.
Adam Strzelecki | nanoant.com | CBCT/PET tomography engineer

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by shijan » Wed 08 Apr 2020 20:07

By the way, take a look. Photoshop 2020 interface seems start to use similar logic and style as collapsed/expanded "adjustment layers" in Photoline. It allow to show and hide groups with tools inside tabs.
ImageImage

Very similar to my sketch about simplified "adjustment layers" toolbars in Photoline:
Image

P.S. The good thing in beta 3 is that you remove gradients from tiny expanding buttons with arrows. The difference is very subtle but UI looks cleaner now. That was example of well removed "visual noise". But removing line border frames around tabs and other elements is a bad idea. It destroys appearance. All UI holds on those border lines.
Old vs new:
ImageImage
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by Ralf » Wed 08 Apr 2020 23:34

Juan wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 12:00
So I encourage everybody to post only there their own wishes and ideas.
I'm not the most experienced user and it's still a real challenge for me to follow the ongoing discussions.

The reason for naming it a "challenge" is really simple: As my comment is not a comment on 22.40b3 but a feed back to Juan's statement, many threads mix up error reports, feed backs, likes and dislikes, wishes and proposals and so on. Very often it is hard for me to identify the new version related stuff among the noise. But I follow the discussion to get those real nuggets helping to understand, why some things works as they do.

So, if the announcement of of a new version had a clear list of the new features to be tested and a list of eliminated bugs, which are to be evaluated, then all postings should focus on that. Additional requests could be added in an "open item list", "RFCs" or what ever you name it - i.e. in some other specific threads!

If the forum could get like/dislike buttons a lot of questions could be answered very easily. "Shall tabs be well separated by darker outer pixel lines?" will so get a clear voting pro or con outer pixel lines (or no clear answer indicating that it is not that important). I had not recognized that Juan's comment on b2 should initiate any voting. Otherwise I had voted for "tabs should be separated from each other my outer lines or diferent colors". But please inside the forum, because for me it is easier to understand the forum (with some more discipline) than the blender community approach.

I still hope, that even the never ending story "PL looks so old fashioned" could be closed some day. For me PL should not look for the "best looking" award, but for the "best working". Changing the UI should help to make work flows more efficiently. If not, then it is wasted time to discuss whether something is more or less nice. But whenever being discussed than in a RFC-thread and not in a thread related to a specific version.

So, that shall be my first and last noise in that version related thread.

Ralf

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Re: Neue Testversion 22.40b3

Post by der_fotograf » Fri 10 Apr 2020 19:44

Die »Anderen« haben möglicherweise hübschere GUIs, aber dafür hapert es unter der Haube (z.B. Affinity Photo).

Wenn ich ehrlich sein soll: Mir sieht nicht nur PL zu »zerfasert« aus, weil zu viel Rücksicht auf Anwenderwünsche genommen wird. Das sind häufig Komfort-Funktionen oder die GUI, klaut den Entwicklern aber Zeit für die wichtigeren Dinge. Siehe auch Antwort von PhilM weiter oben. Übrigens sieht auch Scribs zerfasert aus. Oder Rhino 3D. Oder Ashlar Vellum...

Aber: Ich muss mich in jedes Werkzeug einarbeiten. Eine 5-Achsen-CNC Fräsmaschine kann ich auch nicht mit links im Vorbeigehen komplett bedienen, ebenso wenig wie einen Heidelberger Tiegel (Druckmaschine, dafür gab es früher sogar eine Meisterausbildung!).

Wie die Symbole dann aussehen oder wo sie sind, das ist eine Sache des Trainings. Solange das Produkt, das ich mit dem Werkzeug herstelle, perfekt ist, sind mir die ganzen blödsinnigen Wünsche für die Werkzeugverpackung ziemlich egal und gehen mir nur auf die Nerven.

Sinnvoll wäre es, wenn jemand einen Wunsch äussert und gleich dazuschreibt, wie viel er persönlich für die Programmierung des Features bezahlen würde. Würden die Entwickler dann z.B. sagen: '2.000 Euro', hätte der User die Möglichkeit zu sagen 'Nein, danke' oder 'OK, ich überweise den Betrag'. Es stünde ihm frei, andere User mit gleichem Wunsch ins Boot zu holen, die sich an der Umsetzung beteiligen wollen.

Alles andere ist niveauloser als eine »Wünsch-Dir-was-Show im deutschen Dumm-TV«.
e-hahn wrote:
Wed 08 Apr 2020 13:46

PhotoLine ist eine grandiose Software, ich arbeite täglich mit ihr, ich möchte sie nicht mehr missen. Dennoch fristet sie ein Nischendasein, findet kaum Beachtung, zumindest im Vergleich zu den anderen.

PhotoLine ist eine Software für kreative, aber genau hier ist das Problem, der erste Eindruck den man gewinnt, der schreckt eher ab.

Ich finde es gut das sich an der Oberfläche was tut, wenn auch langsam. Die anderen machen es sicher besser, aber die haben ja auch eine ganz andere Manpower dahinter, da arbeiten eine ganze menge mehr Leute nur an der GUI.

Persönlich würde ich mir wünschen, das man hier und da weg von von diesen Symbolleisten geht, viele Symbole sehen ohnehin furchtbar aus, vieles kann man hier mit Textbuttons ersetzen, mit einer entsprechenden Gruppierung der Funktionen.

Aber vielleicht sollte man auch erst einmal die Oberfläche etwas besser aufräumen bzw. besser zusammen stellen beim ersten Start von PhotoLine. Startet man PhotoLine das erste mal, ist es ein ziemlich unordentliches verwirrendes Programm was sich einem präsentiert.

Ich finde auch das die Webseite von PhotoLine eine Generalüberholung bedarf. Präsentation ist nun mal alles und im Moment wirkt sie als wäre sie schon 20 Jahre alt.
--------------------------------------------
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
— Werner Heisenberg