One application, or three, or five?

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russellcottrell
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One application, or three, or five?

Post by russellcottrell » Thu 05 Sep 2019 09:46

Hello, and thank you again for PhotoLine. I think this may have been brought up before, but it seems that PhotoLine is actually at least three different applications rolled into one: a photo editor, a vector graphics editor, and a desktop publisher. Not to mention a raw processor and an image browser. My own interest is photo editing, and that is what PhotoLine is to me. I use RawTherapee for raw processing; and functionalities such as page and paragraph layout (publishing), and most of the vector editing, are things I rarely use and know little about. But I see from the forums that other users have totally different interests. It is as if we are using different programs. My question: is it easier, from a programming standpoint, to have one program that does everything, like a Swiss army knife (the way things are now), or would it be easier or better to separate the functionalities into separate programs, or at least separate tabs or modules as some programs do?

Just curious . . . .

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Gerhard Huber
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by Gerhard Huber » Thu 05 Sep 2019 10:03

From the programming side, it is no difference in effort if you create one app or several.
The advantage to have one program are:
  • you don't have to transfer the "thing" you want to work on in a different program with all the problems that can occur with the transfer.
  • you can mix "things" like text, vector and photos without any limitations
  • you can use filters like blur on text or vector
  • you have to "learn" only one program
  • you need less memory on your HDD
  • you have to update only one program
  • last but not least, you save money

PhilM
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by PhilM » Thu 05 Sep 2019 17:15

I fully agree with Gerhard.

Best regards

Philippe

bruce1951
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by bruce1951 » Fri 06 Sep 2019 00:16

The way I see it is that every user has a different requirement. There isn't a single programs that will do 'everything'. And users simply won't buy something that has limited features. So developers are stuck somewhere in the middle. Programs such as Photoshop and PaintShopPro have become bloated monsters that require resources that require users to constantly upgrade. Along with the upgrades the bloat brings with it complications, bugs and sloppy/lazy programing.

Photoline is powerful and resource friendly. How the developers compile the code into a sub 30meg file is beyond my understanding. But when compared the the hundreds of megs of download of other software then they are obviously 'smart' coders.

There are a zillion 'simple' photo editors on the market. From there it gets complicated. My wish list is for a no frills Photoline/Krita creation. I don't want/need fancy UI. I don't want fluff. Just solid coding that has been tested. I only wish I had known about Photoline years earlier.

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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by bruce1951 » Fri 06 Sep 2019 03:28

Just to add to my post above. I use a number of Topaz plugins. One of them being Studio. Some weeks back Topaz released Studio 2. I downloaded and installed Studio 2. It was/is full of bugs and had very few adjustments/options. They have released several 'updates' to address a number of issues. I decided to do an update to see if Studio 2 had 'improved'. The 'update' was 643 meg !!!!!! 643 meg for an update on a plugin !!. I aborted the update. What am I missing that sees a Photoline download of less than 30 meg but a plugin 'update' need 643 meg?

So if Photoline can grow in such a way that we don't need plugins and still keep it lean and mean in size then all power to the Photoline team.

bruce

mwenz
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by mwenz » Sat 07 Sep 2019 03:24

A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.

That's how I feel about PL. While I only use PL for image editing (and have wished for myself PL concentrated in this arena), likely the user base would be far smaller. Without the current user base, would PL still be around? If not, my selfish wish would probably be part of its demise.

That said, I find vector drawing/editing far easier in another application. As for layout work (my primary work), there is no way I could make the money I have by using PL.

I have been, and will remain, a very happy PL user when it comes to image editing.

Mike
(But I still need to use something else for the occasional duotones, though. Unless I am missing something...)

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russellcottrell
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by russellcottrell » Sat 07 Sep 2019 04:39

mwenz wrote:
Sat 07 Sep 2019 03:24
(But I still need to use something else for the occasional duotones, though. Unless I am missing something...)
Make a stamped copy layer over a grayscale image, colorize the copy layer, then use a color filter to limit the color effect to specific values.
Use more colors if desired, including for the background.
To filter it with a curve, create a 50% gray mask for the copy layer, then create a child curves layer for the mask. (You may have to intensify the saturation of the copy layer.) There may be other ways to do it.

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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by mwenz » Sun 08 Sep 2019 02:42

russellcottrell wrote:
Sat 07 Sep 2019 04:39
mwenz wrote:
Sat 07 Sep 2019 03:24
(But I still need to use something else for the occasional duotones, though. Unless I am missing something...)
Make a stamped copy layer over a grayscale image, colorize the copy layer, then use a color filter to limit the color effect to specific values.
Use more colors if desired, including for the background.
To filter it with a curve, create a 50% gray mask for the copy layer, then create a child curves layer for the mask. (You may have to intensify the saturation of the copy layer.) There may be other ways to do it.
That will not be an actual (i.e., real) duotone that will separate for printing on the appropriate plates. I know how to fake one, but that isn't what I desire. But thank you for the response.

Mike

Paul
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by Paul » Tue 10 Sep 2019 10:01

That said, I find vector drawing/editing far easier in another application. As for layout work (my primary work), there is no way I could make the money I have by using PL.
I, on the other hand, get a fair amount of my income from PL, just because is it so well integrated and flexible. I don't have to consider if I'm working with vectors, bitmap or text, almost every effect works with whatever I'm working on. Certainly if it is converted to placeholder.
In every other program I've tried I very soon bump into the limits, so I've given up on looking for a better program than PL. And even when I see an app with a brilliant feature, it usually is just that, one good feature. The rest just doesn't work as well. And often such a feature is implemented in PL after a short while.
Combine this with good support and a really low price..

- Paul

mwenz
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by mwenz » Tue 10 Sep 2019 22:26

Paul wrote:
Tue 10 Sep 2019 10:01
I, on the other hand, get a fair amount of my income from PL, just because is it so well integrated and flexible. I don't have to consider if I'm working with vectors, bitmap or text, almost every effect works with whatever I'm working on. Certainly if it is converted to placeholder.
In every other program I've tried I very soon bump into the limits, so I've given up on looking for a better program than PL. And even when I see an app with a brilliant feature, it usually is just that, one good feature. The rest just doesn't work as well. And often such a feature is implemented in PL after a short while.
Combine this with good support and a really low price..
We perhaps build different types of documents.

I don't use much in the way of effects, for instance, excepting the odd drop shadow. Otherwise, I am just processing images in PL for the most part.

Text is certainly handled more completely in an application that can make use of OpenType features, which I use a lot in my work. Find/replace using regular expressions is a must for me. Being able to bring in what is called tagged text is an absolute must when I am working on books using manuscripts written in a word processor. Tagged text as generated out of databases for signage that is replaced every month is another need. Simple to complicated merges, occasionally I use XML from clients, etc., etc. The foregoing lists/items are not even the tip of the proverbial iceberg for my uses. None of which I can do with PL. (Including duotones...)

What we can agree on are how well the brothers have written this application and their efforts to expand & enhance it for the broad user base.

Martin Huber
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by Martin Huber » Wed 11 Sep 2019 09:24

mwenz wrote:
Sun 08 Sep 2019 02:42
russellcottrell wrote:
Sat 07 Sep 2019 04:39
mwenz wrote:
Sat 07 Sep 2019 03:24
(But I still need to use something else for the occasional duotones, though. Unless I am missing something...)
Make a stamped copy layer over a grayscale image, colorize the copy layer, then use a color filter to limit the color effect to specific values.
Use more colors if desired, including for the background.(...)
That will not be an actual (i.e., real) duotone that will separate for printing on the appropriate plates. I know how to fake one, but that isn't what I desire. (...)
In document mode, you can assign colors and gradients to gray images. That in combination with overprinting can be used to simulate duotone images.

Martin

mwenz
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by mwenz » Thu 12 Sep 2019 19:27

Martin Huber wrote:
Wed 11 Sep 2019 09:24
mwenz wrote:
Sun 08 Sep 2019 02:42
russellcottrell wrote:
Sat 07 Sep 2019 04:39

Make a stamped copy layer over a grayscale image, colorize the copy layer, then use a color filter to limit the color effect to specific values.
Use more colors if desired, including for the background.(...)
That will not be an actual (i.e., real) duotone that will separate for printing on the appropriate plates. I know how to fake one, but that isn't what I desire. (...)
In document mode, you can assign colors and gradients to gray images. That in combination with overprinting can be used to simulate duotone images.

Martin
Yes, I know, Martin.

But I need real duotone images using certain (generally) Pantone colors which will separate to spot color plates. I do not see this as a possibility. At least when used in conjunction with layout software. If you have a sample PL file that would do this, I would love to examine it.

Thank you, Mike

Martin Huber
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by Martin Huber » Fri 13 Sep 2019 12:25

mwenz wrote:
Thu 12 Sep 2019 19:27
But I need real duotone images using certain (generally) Pantone colors which will separate to spot color plates. I do not see this as a possibility. At least when used in conjunction with layout software.
Maybe I misunderstand your intent and I don't know about that layout software part, but on export the attached document creates a PDF with a separate spot color plate.
The spot color itself has been created using the Document Color List (View > Lists > Document Color List).

Martin
SpotColor.pld
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maxwell
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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by maxwell » Fri 13 Sep 2019 14:05

You can transfer Pantone colors into a colorlist and load the list in Photoline. As Martin wrote you get then via pdf a fitting print file. I testet such pdf files via preflight with Acrobat and they were accepted.

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Re: One application, or three, or five?

Post by mwenz » Fri 13 Sep 2019 19:32

Martin Huber wrote:
Fri 13 Sep 2019 12:25
mwenz wrote:
Thu 12 Sep 2019 19:27
But I need real duotone images using certain (generally) Pantone colors which will separate to spot color plates. I do not see this as a possibility. At least when used in conjunction with layout software.
Maybe I misunderstand your intent and I don't know about that layout software part, but on export the attached document creates a PDF with a separate spot color plate.
The spot color itself has been created using the Document Color List (View > Lists > Document Color List).

Martin

SpotColor.pld
Thank you, Martin.

Yes, but it is not the same thing. Placing an overprinted layer atop other layers does work as in other applications that can fake a duotone. But do try Photoshop or Corel's PhotoPaint and make an actual duo- or tri-tone image. Adjust their transfer curves. But use an actual photo. Go so far as to have proofs made at a local print establishment if you have a relationship with one. Or even talk with their pre-press department about the differences. If you did, you would see the difference.

Or not. If you do not see the value in any of this, it simply isn't going to happen.