Changing document size or something -- HELP

Here everybody can post his problems with PhotoLine
User avatar
greenmorpher
Mitglied
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue 29 May 2007 14:42
Location: Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by greenmorpher » Sat 05 Apr 2008 07:02

I'm going nuts here. I am trying to add a shadow outside a photo (Menu bar > Effects > Effects > Shadow outside).

However, for the shadow to show, I must first change the size of the document or page or whatever with transparent background.

WHAT IN HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO CHANGE? It actually worked once (I think) but I can't duplicate it! What are the steps? Am I encountering a bug here?

And Martin and Gerhard -- what about fixing this procedure? It is bizarre that a shadow will be added and be invisible. Why doesn't the window automatically resize to show the shadow? To my mind, that makes more sense.

One thing I tried -- in the image window, I changed the size of the image to 600x450 px, scaled down to 18%. When I copied it, opened a new document, and pasted it in, it appeared as around 2000 x 1300 px.

I am totally lost.

Mac Intel OS X.4.11, PL32 v.14.11

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com

User avatar
greenmorpher
Mitglied
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue 29 May 2007 14:42
Location: Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by greenmorpher » Sun 06 Apr 2008 03:41

Incidentally, after struggling with this for untold, unproductive time, I switched to Canvas and resized my photos, added shadows, rendered them and saved off as JPEGs, all in a flash. And now they are on eBay doing their selling stuff as they should have been yesterday.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com

lutz
Mitglied
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed 12 Apr 2006 19:53

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by lutz » Sun 06 Apr 2008 06:21

Hello Geoff,

perhaps this is what you want?
I duplicate the image layer and select the background. Then:
Layout > Document > Change Document Size ( enter a new pixel size and center the image with the arrow icons if desired).
Then select the upper layer again and add the drop shadow effect.

User avatar
greenmorpher
Mitglied
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue 29 May 2007 14:42
Location: Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by greenmorpher » Sun 06 Apr 2008 15:02

Thanks, lutz -- that's a workaround, but a bit clumsy, it seems to me.

When I change the document size with just one layer open, why does the layer scale out pof add white margins to fill the document -- and not show the background, which I have set to transparent.

From my point of view, the document is separate from the layer. When I change document size, the image, the layer, should remain unchanged, floating above the document. As it is, changing the document size has the same effect as changing the layer size. Nah! Doesn't make sense. :cry:

I really can't get a conceptual grasp of what is going on. In Canvas, I have the analog page, I drop a picture on to it, the picture has its own resolution that is not tied to the page, then I can have layers sitting on the page or different objects -- say a picture and its shadow -- stacked on one layer. I can understand that.

Whatever the concept is here, I simply cannot understand it.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com

User avatar
Gerhard Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3839
Joined: Mon 18 Nov 2002 15:30
Location: Bad Gögging

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by Gerhard Huber » Sun 06 Apr 2008 15:59

greenmorpher wrote:Whatever the concept is here, I simply cannot understand it.
The concept is easy to understand. The "Layer/Change Layer Size" function (that's the function of choice) doesn't create a transparency channel. If you have a image without transparency, it will fill the borders with the background color. If you want to get transparency, just open "Layer/Layer Properties" and activate "Transparency" before resizing.

Gerhard

User avatar
greenmorpher
Mitglied
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue 29 May 2007 14:42
Location: Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by greenmorpher » Mon 07 Apr 2008 00:43

Hiya Gerhard

That works -- yes -- but it doesn't clarify the concept. The concept I have in my head is that document, page and layer are all separate things and acting on one should not vary the others. That concept is obvious in the analog of a computer screen. You reinforce that concept by using the three different terms.

The confusing part is that in the picture window, scaling the layer, page and document ALL do the same thing. So let's get with it! In fact, all those menu items open up the same dialog box -- it is meaningless. If, in reality, they are the same thing, just gray out the commands in respect of page and document because what we want is to scale the layer, just as changing page size is grayed out when the image window is open.

Changing the size of the layer and document have different dialog boxes -- but do the same thing (change page size isn't available in the image window).

How about making them do different things -- which they LOOK as though they will do?

How about this: in the "Change Document Size" dialog there is the opportunity to change the background colour. This is where I was trying to set transparent. It works with every other colour, but it doesn't work with transparent. How about when the user sets transparent in that background colour dialog, it introduces transparency? That makes it work. Who on earth (I am referring to ordinary users here) would think to go looking at the Layer Properties to set transparency when they actually have a sub-dialog within the dialog box of the process they are using which allows them to "set" transparency .,.. but does not deliver?

You will argue that this backgbround colour thing is a different concept. It may be -- but not for me, the ordinary user. It offers me colours and transparency. If it is not going to deliver transparency, then it should not offer it. But as I see it, it CAN deliver transparency by triggering whatever it is that selecting "Transparency" in "Layer Properties" triggers.

While we are on "Change Document Size", how about providing the choice of proportional change and relative (percentage) change? Take my present case -- I am wanting to change document size to incorporate a shadow. I can set the shadow size by absolutely or I can use a relative dimension, e.g. 10%. Now, I want to change the document size to incorporate that 10% extra width and depth. To do that, I have to calculate the absolute measurement in both directions to get a final image that neatly wraps around the image with shadow. It would be so much easier if I could change the document size in proportion and by percentage. Calculations are what a computer does best.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com

lutz
Mitglied
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed 12 Apr 2006 19:53

Transparency enabled by default ?

Post by lutz » Wed 09 Apr 2008 21:46

Actually, what would be a good reason to NOT have transparency enabled by default ?

I almost assume that for my purposes I would like to have transparency available for all layers automatically.
Could such a setting be added to the preferences or what would be the disdavantages?

User avatar
greenmorpher
Mitglied
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue 29 May 2007 14:42
Location: Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by greenmorpher » Thu 10 Apr 2008 01:26

Sorry -- I left out a couple of words in the first paragraph of my last post. I meant to say that the difference between layer, page and document was obvious when you had the analog on the screen of the paper of a certain size on a pasteboard which you have if you open a "New Document" in PL32 rather than a "New Picture".

I hope that makes what I was talking about clearer.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com

User avatar
Gerhard Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3839
Joined: Mon 18 Nov 2002 15:30
Location: Bad Gögging

Re: Transparency enabled by default ?

Post by Gerhard Huber » Thu 10 Apr 2008 05:55

lutz wrote:Actually, what would be a good reason to NOT have transparency enabled by default ?
I almost assume that for my purposes I would like to have transparency available for all layers automatically.
Could such a setting be added to the preferences or what would be the disdavantages?
It costs memory and therefore speed. It makes "problems" in some file formats, like PDF (because PDF 1.3 can't save transparency). Some tools won't act like you want.

Gerhard

lutz
Mitglied
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed 12 Apr 2006 19:53

Re: Transparency enabled by default ?

Post by lutz » Thu 10 Apr 2008 19:23

Gerhard Huber wrote:..... Some tools won't act like you want. .....
Hello Gerhard,

which tools would work differently? This might be interesting to know in general ( would they not only work differently for a certain spot when I actually have transparency in use there?)
An unused (empty) alpha-channel would slow PL down significantly?
Is there really a problem with PDF 1.3 ( is PL still using version 1.3?; if so the export dialog could be taking care of this. Problems would show up when I willingly use transparancy and not just by having an empty alpha channel? This means the situation actually would not have changed anyhow)?


As far as I can see PaintShop Pro handles transparency as suggested above - it is always available, even for the background image - and this works without any problems. It seems in Photoshop it is also always available with the exception of the background layer ( requires a right-click and "Layer from Background" conversion).

I guess, it would be very nice to have the option to use a "transparency on - set it and forget it" setting in the preferences - such a default might cause less confusion for beginners too (and leave the option to switch on transparency layer by layer for pros working with giga-byte images). Simplicity is an almost priceless advantage.

User avatar
Gerhard Huber
Entwickler
Entwickler
Posts: 3839
Joined: Mon 18 Nov 2002 15:30
Location: Bad Gögging

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by Gerhard Huber » Thu 10 Apr 2008 21:40

I know that there are programs that have all layers the same size and all layers above the background layer with transparency. I see it as a big advantage of PhotoLine that you can decide what you want.
I can't describe every function here but believe me that it is better to work without transparency as long as it is possible (for example the print function of Windows can't print transparent images).
We still stay on PDF 1.3 because it is the format of choice if you want to use the files for print shops, most RIPs can only handle this files.

Gerhard

lutz
Mitglied
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed 12 Apr 2006 19:53

Transparency "ON" by default ?

Post by lutz » Fri 11 Apr 2008 20:19

Hello Gerhard ,

I cannot follow your logic here. For a certain project I either do need transparency or I do not. It does not make a difference if Photoline discourages transparency usage (by making it hard to implement or hard to find) or not.
I trust the Computerinsel engineering very much that you could figure out a way for Photoline to ignore empty alpha transparency layers and thus make any possible speed differences more or less negligible (or tackle the problem in another fashion).

I do not have any problems printing images with transparency under Windows neither from Photoline, PaintShop Pro, or other programs. Simple programs will obviously see the transparent regions as white, as expected.

In my eyes, this need to switch on Transparency Layer-by-Layer in PL just adds another unnecessary complexity to an image editor (and they are certainly already complex enough). I do not know any other software which requires this individual switching on/off of transparency. Aside from the previously mentioned editors, PhotoImpact has a layer/object model which is pretty similar to the one of PhotoLine (layers can have different sizes and they also have extensive vector options) - and this program does also provide Transparency for all their objects (no need to switch anything on).

The unorthodoxy of PhotoLine has its big advantages but in some cases also obvious drawbacks. The mainstream is not always wrong in matters concerning usability. I believe it would help if PhotoLine would offer the simpler mainstream solution as an option.

My suggestion was actually to let the "user decide what he wants", to add an option in the preferences. For the sake of any beginners, I would suggest to set transparency on by default - similar to all the other programs. Every user would obviously still have the choice to consciously revert to the present solution. This change could likely remove a common stumbling block for beginners and could make PhotoLine usage also more comfortable for the majority of users.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding some finer points, but I am pretty confident that the way the big guns are handling the transparency aspect of layers is more user friendly.
Gerhard Huber wrote:I know that there are programs that have all layers the same size and all layers above the background layer with transparency. I see it as a big advantage of PhotoLine that you can decide what you want.
I can't describe every function here but believe me that it is better to work without transparency as long as it is possible (for example the print function of Windows can't print transparent images).
We still stay on PDF 1.3 because it is the format of choice if you want to use the files for print shops, most RIPs can only handle this files.

Gerhard

User avatar
greenmorpher
Mitglied
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue 29 May 2007 14:42
Location: Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Re: Changing document size or something -- HELP

Post by greenmorpher » Mon 14 Apr 2008 00:09

You're thinking, Lutz, that you would olike transparency ON by default, yes? Then you could turn it off if you wished or just removed or merged with the other layers if you e.g. save as to JPEG, as the program does now.

Yes?

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com

lutz
Mitglied
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed 12 Apr 2006 19:53

transparency "ON"by default ?

Post by lutz » Mon 14 Apr 2008 22:43

Hello Geoff,
yes, simply tranparency "ON" by default and still retain the current switches to choose individually whatever one needs. I believe it would be much more convenient if all layers would have the transparency capability enabled by default. This should help:

1) The user would not have to bother enabling transparency layer by layer and would for example not encounter any problems like described by you in the original post (also we could perhaps get rid of the "new layer dialog" which pops up every time one creates a new layer; other programs are not bothering the user with these questions either; I believe any chance to omit a mouse-click and a distraction is worth taking; [Photoline is obviously better than Photoshop in several other user interface aspects]).
2) Photoline would behave by default like all the big image editors --> very good for newbies and people switching from other apps.
3) if implemented as a setting, in the "options", anybody interested in it could return without problems to the current behaviour.
4) I do not see any real drawbacks when implementing this solution ( obviously I do not know anything about programming; but creative solutions could certainly minimize any speed implications). Very likely, I do not understand Gerhads counter arguments. When I save to a format which does not support transparency I have to deal with the consequences - at this point it makes absolutely no difference if I had to enable the transparency with a lot of hassles in the first place or not. BTW, Photoline has a very good warning dialog when attempting this already.

greenmorpher wrote:You're thinking, Lutz, that you would olike transparency ON by default, yes? Then you could turn it off if you wished or just removed or merged with the other layers if you e.g. save as to JPEG, as the program does now.
Yes?
Cheers, Geoff
Last edited by lutz on Tue 15 Apr 2008 01:28, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
greenmorpher
Mitglied
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue 29 May 2007 14:42
Location: Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Re: transparency "ON"by default ?

Post by greenmorpher » Tue 15 Apr 2008 01:24

lutz wrote:Hello Geoff,
yes, simply tranparency "ON" by default and still retain the current switches to choose individually whatever one needs. I believe it would be much more convenient if all layers would have the transparency capability enabled by default. ...
4) I do not see any real drawbacks when implementing this solution ( obviously I do not know anything about programming; but creative solutions could certainly minimize any speed implications). Very likely, I do not understand Gerhads counter arguments. When I save to a format which does not support transparency I have to deal with the consequences - at this point it makes absolutely no difference if I had to enable the transparency with a lot of hassles in the first place or not. BTW, Photoline has a very good warning dialog when attempting this already.
I can't see the drawbacks either, but then I have no idea at all what Gerhard is talking about in this matter! Yes, the warning is excellent and gives you the option of stopping that save or merging all layers. I rather thought this took care of the major part of Gerhard's worry.

I agree with you -- I would prefer the transparency on by default.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com