Tutorial for a new user

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bruce1951
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von bruce1951 »

Ken in a past life I produced many documents. Many for governments. Even for federal senate committees. Complicated national schemes.If I can produce a document that politicians can grasp then I think a 'User Guide' for PL would be a walk in the park. :?
Again I think you have forgotten how hard it was to find your way around PL when you first started. Besides flipping about the UI while trying to perform a task in not a good work habit. Whereas a concise User Guide could be either in another window or a hard copy.

But at the end of the day it's not our worry. After all we are 'just' users. It's up to the developers to decide their priorities. I'm sure if they thought it a was of concern they would address that concern. In the meantime we can debate the issue all we like. If one of the developers contacted me for my ideas and input I would be happy to assist. But until, or if, that happens I'll keep my ideas floating around in the far back corner of my brain.

regards
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photoken
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

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bruce1951 hat geschrieben: Sa 11 Mär 2017 15:46 Again I think you have forgotten how hard it was to find your way around PL when you first started.
No, as I said, I remember very well.
Two points:
  • "Finding my way around PL" was the easiest thing to learn. It only takes one time of browsing through the Toolbox and the menu items to feel comfortable with finding where things are located.
  • A difficulty I encountered was trying to find the equivalent function for those I had used in other programs -- Where is the Clone tool? Where is the Levels adjustment? Where is the Gradient Map? My proposal in the previous message addresses this very efficiently and effectively.
  • The most difficult thing was gaining an understanding of the concepts of the Lasso, Mask(s) and Selections. Understanding that only came from asking questions and working through the concepts.
(OK, so that was three.... :wink: )
bruce1951 hat geschrieben: Sa 11 Mär 2017 15:46 Besides flipping about the UI while trying to perform a task in not a good work habit. Whereas a concise User Guide could be either in another window or a hard copy.
Again, after using PL once or twice, one is no longer aimlessly "flipping around" the UI. No matter how you try to define it, your user guide is an unnecessary addition to the info already provided by the Help system, and merely adds an inefficient process of "flipping around" some sort of additional thing while trying to get something done.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
bruce1951
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von bruce1951 »

Well Ken I give in. You are obviously much smarter than me. Because it has taken me more than once or twice flipping around the UI to learn PL.
Sorry I tried to help.

regards
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greenmorpher
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von greenmorpher »

bruce1951 hat geschrieben: So 12 Mär 2017 03:43 Well Ken I give in. You are obviously much smarter than me. Because it has taken me more than once or twice flipping around the UI to learn PL.
Sorry I tried to help.

regards
Me too. Further, I am an old guy, so learning new stuff takes me a while, and if I don't use a tool for a bit, I have to go back to basics on it. A simple guide such as you proposed, Bruce, would be a great help.

As would tutorials I could use to extend my capabilities and as refreshers from time to time. I want to do something, I learn the way to do it through trial and error, then by the time I want to do that particular thing again, I have forgotten the steps involved.

Bruce, I don't know what it is, but the same thing happened a while back when I suggested bringing "Add Transparency" to the first menu level. I was told I didn't need that, that it would clutter up the menus, and so on and so forth. Specious arguments to say the least. And the argument went on to exhaustion (mine). Why?

PL is an excellent program that helps me to do many good things, but it is not perfect. And so long as the top users believe they have some sort of mandate to determine what the rest of us need, it isn't going to get a lot better for new users and those at the bottom of the user heap.

And so long as it doesn’t get better for new users, it will remain a tiny player in a big and important field. It needs new users badly -- and hundreds of them. If the Brothers want to see more users, they had better start listening to us people down on the ground floor about what our needs are.

Cheers, Geoff
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Herbert123
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

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A quickstart guide for Photoshop users transitioning to PhotoLine would be quite useful in my opinion as well. I remember when I started out (after having extensively working with Photoshop since version 3.5) I had trouble finding tools due to the non-standard English function labels (Histogram, Darker, lighter, copy brush, lasso, mask, false color, etc.), the rather odd menu structure compared to other image editors, the lasso-mask terminology/distinction, and the various hidden ("mystery meat") options (double-click on lasso tool, Harmony, double-clicking various fields, etc,) - all which were (are) non-standard compared to the "industry standards".

A quickstart guide listing all these subtle differences (but important) in workflow would have saved me precious time.

@Ken: it's awesome you were able to find your way around without too much trouble when you started out with PhotoLine. For me it was more or less the same: I loved discovering all these small hidden cool features, and I learn that way best - discovery.

However, you completely fail to understand that users fall in several categories: novices, occasional users, transfer users, experts, rote users, and perpetual intermediates. I have been teaching students for almost two decades, including Adobe applications such as Photoshop. You can't just expect users to 1) look things up in the user manual and/or 2) actually understand what is written in it. I wish it worked that way, but it doesn't - 99% of my students NEVER look things up in the manual. They Google it. They try things out. They ask peers. But actually opening a manual? Why, in the world of most users the manual is often not even considered! And even if they do, many users/students prefer tutorials. Step by step instructions, or a quick overview of the function in a short video tutorial.

I don't think you have ever actually taught a group of students (no matter their age) or created video/written tutorials before and dealt with how people learn - you would have very different view then. Your view seems to be limited to your own experience only.

Your suggestion to add a "this feature is commonly called..." is interesting, but I feel PhotoLine ought to just adopt the proper English standard names as in use by every other design application. It is just confusing to new users, and obstructs new users from transferring their existing knowledge to PhotoLine. Adding an explanatory entry in PhotoLine's manual is not going to be helpful at all in these cases. Most users will not open the user manual. Besides, PhotoLine's English user manual is quite badly written and structured as it is - making many basic mistakes from a technical writer point of view.@Ken ends :-)

From my experience, based on students' comments, colleagues comments, and my own experience, these things stand in the way of more users adopting PhotoLine (or even considering it):

- the default interface setup is completely non-standard. It looks different compared to almost any other image editor out there. For example, the layers are located on the right. The toolbox is a horizontal two-rows based setup. The workspace is neurotic in terms of functionality (text styles are initially shown as well?)

- many functions in PhotoLine are named differently compared to - well, just about any other image editor.

- the menu structure is again quite differently structured compared to most other image editors.

- lack of presets. No image presets in the "new image" dialog is just plain silly. What is more, most other image editors have very nice start dialogs with lots of presets to quickly get up and running. Compare Photoshop and Krita, which have a wealth of useful presets. Frustrating to many types of user.

- a lack of built-in help aside from the user manual. Novice and occasional users are left to their own devices. There is no helpful starting screen with suggestions what to do next, or how to start using PhotoLine.

- almost no video tutorials. Higher quality professionally produced tutorials are non-existent for PhotoLine. Googling tutorials for PhotoLine is often a fruitless effort.

- the manual is, to put it bluntly, badly structured and badly written. This is not dissing the devs - it is just that they are not technical writers, and they do the best they can. I have written manuals and technical docs myself as an instructor, and the PhotoLine manuals could be improved so much.
Not having a web version online does not help either. Googling PhotoLine functions would at least result in the manual being shown in Google.

- the utter lack of any help or guides assisting transfer and expert users to migrate their existing knowledge and experience to PhotoLine.

- lack of exposure of high-quality work and samples on the main website. Compare Affinity's website(s): excellent quality samples of work that attracts new users like flies attracted to honey. As a matter of fact, the welcome dialog in Affinity allows users to open professional work samples directly in those applications - immediately showcasing what can be achieved in those applications. And it works.

- PhotoLine (the company) is making NO USE at all of any social networking. No Facebook, no twitter, no nothing. No pinterest showcasing work. No social connections anywhere on the web. Just this old forum. Which is an utterly outdated approach, and younger users (in their teens and twenties) do not use forums as their first point of contact anymore.

- likewise, PhotoLine (the company) has no Youtube presence.

- finally, the lack of marketing and "buzz" surrounding PhotoLine is troublesome as well, of course. Not helping at all.

A couple of these can be easily fixed (first four points, and a quick start guide for transfer users). The lack of high-quality work and tutorials are like the chicken and the egg: someone has to take the first step (in the case of Affinity Serif commissioned professional artists and designers to create work samples and tutorials).

My two cents. It is a combination of the above factors that stem the growth of PhotoLine's popularity.
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photoken
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von photoken »

123,
I don't doubt for a minute what you say about the students/new users. I defer to your knowledge about their habits.

I will never, ever understand why someone, when opening a new software program, will waste considerable time looking for an answer on the Web instead of quickly searching the Help file. :?

If the students you teach lack the mental capacity to think of looking for an answer in the most obvious place (the Help), and/or are so deficient in reading comprehension that they cannot understand the written word, then the problem is them and not PL, IMO. We can only chalk it up as another example of "The Death of Civilization (as we know it)", and focus development efforts on the program's features instead of endlessly chasing to the bottom in order to make something suitable for kindergarteners.

You're absolutely right about there being different categories of users. In one of my previous messages, I tried to get a manageable approach by simplifying those categories into three groups. I still think it's a valid methodology to consider users as falling into the broad categories of
  • Absolute beginners who have never used image processing software.
  • Intermediate users who have done some image editing.
  • Experienced users who have much experience with other image editing software.
I think that suggestions for marketing PL and for making PL "easier" to use would benefit from examining the needs of those user-categories and not by simply pandering to their habits.

I do disagree with several of your criticisms of PL:
  • The default interface is well within the variations shown by other image editors. (Having the Layer List on the right is done by everyone, from the free PaintDotNet to the expensive Photoshop.)
  • Similarly, the menu structure seems to me to be very close to other applications.
  • Having some functions named differently is, at worst, only mildly disconcerting at first. Adding the "Commonly called" line to the Help will solve this. Let's be honest, here -- is it really a show-stopper to have to learn to use a "Copy Brush" instead of a "Clone Tool"? In fact, I've found that I appreciate PL's more precise terminology. (Except for the "False Color" item -- this would be more precise, in English, to be named "Gradient Map".)
I think you overstate the others, but do make some good points with respect to samples, tutorials and presets.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Herbert123
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von Herbert123 »

photoken hat geschrieben: Mo 13 Mär 2017 01:07 123,
I don't doubt for a minute what you say about the students/new users. I defer to your knowledge about their habits.

I will never, ever understand why someone, when opening a new software program, will waste considerable time looking for an answer on the Web instead of quickly searching the Help file. :?

If the students you teach lack the mental capacity to think of looking for an answer in the most obvious place (the Help), and/or are so deficient in reading comprehension that they cannot understand the written word, then the problem is them and not PL, IMO. We can only chalk it up as another example of "The Death of Civilization (as we know it)", and focus development efforts on the program's features instead of endlessly chasing to the bottom in order to make something suitable for kindergarteners.
I suppose that's where the expression "Read the ****ing Manual" comes from? :D
I don't believe it is limited to students or new users. Even when I was a kid, I used to browse through the documentation of stuff - I never understood myself why so many people around me wasted so much time trying to operate devices (video recorders!) without even a mere glance at the manual. Often I helped out grown-ups because I had taken a minute to read the manual.

I noticed that the majority of people don't want to read the manual. Or at least, not at first - only when nothing else works. Don't ask me why.

The "younger generation" has grown up with the internet and mobile devices. The first thing they will do (the majority) when looking for answers is to Google it on their phones, or in the browser. The manual is the last place they will think of (outside the odd exception).

And the thing is, when I need to reference something for help in the Adobe products or other products, I do the same: because Google does a much better and quicker job pointing me in the right direction in Adobe's online manuals than the manuals themselves. It is faster and more efficient that way.

I am teaching myself Godot. Yes, I refer extensively to the manual. But the manual can only get you so far in the beginning - a dry description of all available functionality and functions will not actually show you how to use the functionality in a more "holistic" or conceptual manner. It can't - likewise, PhotoLine's manual cannot help a user to improve a HDR photo - a specific video or written tutorial will do the trick, however. Thus, I am following project tutorials to teach myself Godot. Once I have the basic concepts down, I will be able to build my own mental concepts and solutions.

Unfortunately, you and I (and other experience PL users here) have the (mental) drive to figure things out by ourselves, and/or applying concepts demonstrated in other software in PhotoLine by extrapolating that knowledge and transferring it into PhotoLine. But we belong to the "Expert" user group. Most users do not possess this quality, not are they either interested or willing to become experts - they just want something they have in mind done, and preferably by being shown how it is done. Many users will not or cannot invest time to understand the conceptual side of things. And I do not think they are wrong in this - a rote user just want the job done, and not have to worry about the other stuff in a complex application such as PhotoLine.

That's the way of things. People are animals of habit. (Most) people do not like change and/or leave their comfort zone. So PhotoLine's out-of-the-ordinary naming conventions create an extra threshold to overcome. Notice that Serif with their Affinity products made certain that Adobe users would feel instantly at home - even going so far to the detriment of forsaking a potentially improved workflow according to some Affinity users. But by doing so most Adobe users will feel right at home, and not too disoriented.

Now, I think most of PhotoLine's workflow is an improvement over Photoshop. I generally work faster in PhotoLine now than in Photoshop, and certain things in Photoshop are so incredibly INANELY stupid and outdated (like the transform layer mode handling) that I curse at Photoshop nowadays when I am forced to use it in my classes.

BUT. Certain things in PhotoLine are quite different compared to the competition (free and commercial), and that, combined with the non-standard naming conventions, does hamper the adoption rate of PL. I have seen it for myself. Most students are put off by these things after ten minutes of trying to locate basic tools like Levels, Burn, Dodge, and so on. And I can't say I blame them - there are so many tools to learn, why waste time on trivial things when the competition saves them from the aggravation caused by PhotoLine's non-standard English function labeling?

So, I agree with you - we should not have to care about these things. But in practice PhotoLine's eccentricity isn't helping, nor is the acute lack of marketing and (foremost) lack of web/social network presence. At all. In the meantime new products such as Affinity and Krita are swallowing up large swathes of users.

I mean, how can it be that no-one I meet in my industry (Web dev, graphic design, game dev, app design, 3d, animation) has ever heard of PhotoLine? After more than TWO DECADES of existence? Almost as long as Photoshop? Yet almost no-one is aware of PhotoLine.

In the past three years things have improved a wee tiny bit (again, I did my part in this, by posting information about PhotoLine whereever and whenever I could - almost like a religious zealot). But I stopped doing this a couple of months ago, because it is just a drop of water in the sea. More is needed. Specifically, the community surrounding PhotoLine ought to be expanded, but that only works when marketing and social networking is vastly increased. More (any) professional work on display done in PhotoLine, quality video tutorials showing what new users can achieve, and so on. Pretty much what Serif has been doing since the very start: create a buzz online. They place themselves as rogue products rising up against Adobe, and advocate themselves as software used by professionals to create awesome looking work.

I guess one more issue is the manner in which PhotoLine's website portrays PhotoLine: it comes across as slightly neurotic and unfocused. Compared to the old website it is much of an improvement (how could it not be :wink: ), but compared to other products it is still quite underwhelming. Just visit Blender.org or Krita.org - and those are open source and free products!!! At the very least a well-designed and attractive features page ought to be added. The features listed on the home page are obscure to a lot of users - it just does not show off the capabilities of the software at all.

PS did I mention the layers on the right? When I reset PL's gui, the layer panel is moved to the left. As you say, most applications position it by default on the right. Also odd: the document panel is displayed (why?) above the layer panel on the left. The layer panel is hidden, although it is one of the most important ones to know about. The toolbox isn't a two or three column vertical one - which is the case in most image editors (save for Gimp). I really think the default GUI setup is an awkward one.
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Herbert123
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

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greenmorpher hat geschrieben: So 12 Mär 2017 12:41 PL is an excellent program that helps me to do many good things, but it is not perfect. And so long as the top users believe they have some sort of mandate to determine what the rest of us need, it isn't going to get a lot better for new users and those at the bottom of the user heap.

And so long as it doesn’t get better for new users, it will remain a tiny player in a big and important field. It needs new users badly -- and hundreds of them. If the Brothers want to see more users, they had better start listening to us people down on the ground floor about what our needs are.

Cheers, Geoff
Agreed 100%. Simple presets like Krita and Photoshop for new images, a helpful start dialog with options like "Get started with PhotoLine", "Welcome Photoshop user: start here", "Create a new image/document", "switch shortcuts, labels and GUI setup to Photoshop", etcetera.

And PhotoLine needs to start becoming more attractive to young designers and users. It is too intimidating now. Make use of those workspaces. Expose the workspaces in the GUI - not just by right-mouse clicking tabs or the Window menu (which almost no student I know of uses anyway).
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photoken
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

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greenmorpher hat geschrieben: So 12 Mär 2017 12:41 ...
And so long as the top users believe they have some sort of mandate to determine what the rest of us need, it isn't going to get a lot better for new users and those at the bottom of the user heap.
I hope that I'm the one being referred to there.

Let me make this perfectly clear: I never intend to determine what others will need or get. That's up to the developers and I respect their decisions.

However, this isn't kindergarten where everything someone says is "Wonderful", and we all get a smile from the teacher for being nice little dumplings.

I will question, when necessary, the opinions of others, and do so forcefully. I expect to have my opinions questioned and to need to defend my position, forcefully. This has happened to me many times here, and when flaws in my reasoning have been exposed, I've had to try to adapt and improve upon my original idea. I think this is a great way to generate improvements to PL. A vigorous and civil debate that is thorough can only be considered a Good Thing.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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photoken
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von photoken »

123,
Oh, yeah. The use of "RTFM" in the early days of personal computing forced some good habits.... :wink:

I found myself agreeing with most of your previous post. (I didn't realize that the default UI placed the Layers List on the left. Yes, that's not good.)

Your comments about the new Web site match what I've always felt about it -- it's confused and confusing, scatter-brained and scattered. Unfortunately, a few months ago I lost my work for a new colour scheme and site logo design, and haven't had the desire to start from scratch again. :(

Your idea for some kind of "Get started with PhotoLine" thing has some merit. I'm just thinking out loud here, but if (for the sake of argument) we assume that a new user will be a novice to image editing, that "Getting started" thing could:
  • Show them how to open one of their photos.
  • Show them how to use Filter...Automatic...Automatic Correction.
  • Say to them "Isn't that wonderful? And wasn't that easy?"
  • Then say "Want to see how that was done?"
  • Then step them through using the Correction Wizard.
I'm thinking that would help get them over their initial intimidation of new software.
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.
bruce1951
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

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Us old 'farts' need to keep in mind this is a 'me' generation and 'I want it now' generation. The fall in sales of cameras/DSLR's is a good indication of this. Users are now happy with the phone camera. Why? Because it gives them instant results. PSPx* is a good example. Has two main modes. Adjust and Edit. Only few 'nerds' use the Edit mode. Me! Again because the Adjust is easier.

My point being. Unless you take a new user by the hand they will get lost and find an easier way. Again using a camera as an example. My Nikon D7100 is typical. The first part of the manual is a quick, easy User Guide/Quick start. My bet is that the vast majority of users/owners never read past this section. (Many owner never get out of Auto mode!). Unless PL takes this approach, be it a User Guide or web facilities, it will remain a small fish in a very large ocean.

One other thing to consider. Maybe, just maybe, the developers are happy where they are. Why should they get out of a slow walk just because we want them to run?

regards
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greenmorpher
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von greenmorpher »

Hi Ken

Here is an illustration of the difficulty of new/limited knowledge users trying to move up.

You mentioned early on that this forum is a fount of knowledge.

Last Friday, I asked for a bit of explanation of the sharpening options. I find the manual confusing and not explaining things in terms I can understand. I just don't grok it.

No response so far -- so this forum is not necessarily a fount…

Should be a video/written tutorial on it somewhere. If there is, no-one here knows about it, I presume, because they have not pointed to it.

Cheers, Geoff
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von cathodeRay »

Rather unusually, it seems to me, this discussion is tending towards grumpiness, which, if it is, is a pity, because the subject, which has been aired many times, is an important one: documentation, or rather the lack of it. May I start by suggesting some givens and then follow-ons?

(1) We all think overall PL is great. That's why we use it and contribute to the discussions here.

(2) PL has been around for decades, but still has a quirky interface and poor documentation. From this I think it follows that (a) PL has survived without good documentation (ergo it doesn't need good documentation) and (b) the implication is that the brothers - and they are absolutely entitled to do this - focus on getting the software right, rather than producing slick documentation and marketing materials. My guess is that, for them, they simply don't see the point of it - PL has survived/thrived, so why change things?

(3) The 'want-it-now' generation (I'm not actually sure it is a generational thing - I know lots of oldies who 'want-it-now') are never really going to engage with PL (or any other heavyweight image editing software) because the whole point is they 'want-it-now'. There is simply no point in using heavyweight software if all you are going to do is 'auto-fix'.

(4) So may be we shouldn't worry about the 'want-it-now' people?

(5) If that is agreed, then perhaps what we are talking about is documentation (I'm using the term to encompass anything that tells you how to use PL) aimed at the more than casual user. These people might be (a) new to image editing (probably unlikely - I think most people probably start somewhere else and then for whatever reason migrate to PL) or (b) familiar with at least some basic image editing concepts (layers, histograms and curves etc) having learnt them elsewhere but unused to PL's quirky layout and terminology or (c) already quite advanced in their skills, but want to do even more.

(6) I have said I don't think many people are in group 5(a). Group 5(c) is made up of people like us: we are prepared to put the effort into using this forum to find answers - and on that note I am surprised no one has replied to Geoff's request - unusal to say the least, but I know (for me) that it is because I too am not 100% clear about sharpening (what to use and when etc) and I don't see the point in adding to confusion! So that leaves Group 5(b) - the converts.

(7) What 'converts' need initially is some form of translation into PL-speak. I'm not sure why this can't be incorporated relatively easily into the existing help file: just add index entries for PS type terms to and refer to the equivalent PL terms:

Levels Adjustment: see Histogram Correction etc

Once the initial terminology adjustment has been made, the next step is to discover some of PLs more advanced capabilities. Personally, I always prefer a written tutorial to a video one, because I can read/use it at my own pace - a video on the other hand runs to its own pace (and many are of very poor production quality, though of course there are also some very well produced ones).

Now, as it happens, I think there are already quite a few written tutorials out there, only they don't look like or call themselves tutorials, and in fact they aren't 'out there', they are right here, in this forum.

(8) So maybe all we need is an addition forum section called 'Tutorials' and a selection of posts in there of (already written) posts that cover specific techniques? I know there is a FAQ section, but that is slightly different: usually FAQs are 'single point focused', not full start to finish 'how to so X'.

(9) If that seems like too much, then maybe a proper index of posts/threads that cover a particular subject? If (or rather when) Geoff gets a reply to his sharpening question, there will likely be a wealth of useful information on sharpening right there. All that is needed then is an explicit pointer (as opposed to a list of search results, which by their nature don't sort out the wheat from the chaff.

(10) Lastly, I think we are probably stuck with PLs layout and its quirks - it is and they are too in-built to be re-jigged.

Any (robust or not!) comments welcome, as ever!

cathodeRay
bruce1951
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

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Good post cathodeRay. Yes the "I want it now'" generation is more a timeline rather than an age group.

And yes I agree. Very few novices would start with PL. My bet is that everyone here comes with experience with another editor. So yes 'all' we need is a 'simple' guide that translate what we are familiar with in other editor. And where to find it. How that is done is the issue.

regards
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photoken
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Re: Tutorial for a new user

Beitrag von photoken »

Ray,
Your point (7) is valid and your suggestion (as well as my suggestion of including a "Commonly called..." line to the appropriate Help entry) would take care of any questions regarding terminology. The important thing is to allow searching the Help for "Levels", for example, and getting to the right page for the PL equivalent.

I think you're right about most (not all) newcomers to PL having some experience with image editing. 123 made a very good point about learning a new coding language by working through sample projects. I think it would be valuable to generate some sample PL projects that walked the user through some of the PL tools and functions.

This site already has a place for tutorials -- the Tipps&Tricks forum. At least that's how I've treated that forum for posting my tutorials. Maybe that forum could be renamed to "Tips, Tricks & Tutorials"? And maybe move that forum into the "International" section? I've always posted a reference to my T&T tutorials here in the General Discussion forum because I'm not sure the English-speaking users ever bother to look in the non-International forums....
Ken
Yes, I think it can be eeeeeasily done....
Just take everything out on Highway 61.