Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Here everybody can post his problems with PhotoLine
Vivi_Ram
Mitglied
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2024 17:04

Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Vivi_Ram »

I am a disgruntled Affinity customer who is upset with Serif being acquired by Canva. I also have been quite pissed about their glacial speed of bug fixes and feature releases. So I decided to switch over to PhotoLine. Bought it last week. First off, I'll tell you what my needs exactly are. I am not a photographer. I primarily work in branding/copywriting. Although I primarily began as a writer, I've now had both the pressures and opportunity to upskill. I've begun to do just that. I can now get around Affinity Designer, Photo and Publisher for my basic needs. Where they fall short, I depend on Xara Designer (Really, Xara is my Rock of Gibraltar!).

I will need to understand how to do a number of basic operations quickly in PhotoLine.

1. Clip image to vector shape - In Affinity, this is achieved by simply dragging the image into the vector object in the layer's panel, and voila, job done! Likewise in Xara, a simple Alt+Q is all it takes.

2. Apply a quick mask, invert and paint white to reveal areas. This is extremely easy in Affinity Photo. Couldn't figure it out in PhotoLine. Please help!

3. Set up and use "smart objects" for mockup templates - EXTREMELY IMPORTANT - my bread and butter. In Affinity, no such feature exists. I get around with linked objects.

4. Extrude vector objects into 3D shapes - useful - not essential. Possible in PhotoLine?

5. Link between PhotoLine and Xara/Affinity Designer - Heard this was a possibility and was very keen on it. How?

6. Finally, remove background from objects automatically and non destructively - possible in PhotoLine?


That's my laundry list of urgent needs. I would really appreciate your help! I heard you folks are a friendly bunch. Pretty pleej! :D

PS: You might wonder why I am not choosing "industry standard" Adobe: Because screw Adobe and their subscriptions! I can't afford them. That's why.
User avatar
Hoogo
Betatester
Posts: 4064
Joined: Sun 03 Jul 2005 13:35
Location: Mülheim/Ruhr

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Hoogo »

A lot of that can be done with the "layer mask". There's a menu entry "layer < layer mask..." for it, but there's also a more convenient button at the end of the layer list.
Layer mask.png
There are usually different ways to do things, here is how I would solve your topics:
1)
- In the layer list, move the vector layer above the image layer.
- Then select from the layer mask "convert for previous (CTRL+SHIFT+M)
2)
- Same menu, "Create mask (CTRL+SHIFT+X)". Make sure that the image layer is really selected.
- Then invert (ALT+I)
3)
There are "placeholders", but I'm not 100% sure what mockup template means. I guess some image that will later get replaced by the real image?
4) "Effects < 3D-Body" as a simple effect.
5) "Filter > External programs". Creates a tmp image file and starts the other program with that. Image in PL is updated when the other program is closed/image is saved.
6) Not really.
You can try the "quick selection tool", then "create layer mask from mask" from the layer mask menu. But that won't address fringes, semi transparency and stuff like that. There's the "border matting tool" that can address these problems, but that's all semi-automatic and not "non destructively". And good cutouts of complicated objects need manual work.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
----------------
Herr Doktor, ich bin mir ganz sicher, ich habe Atom! /Doctor, doctor, I'm sure, I've got atoms!
Vivi_Ram
Mitglied
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2024 17:04

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Vivi_Ram »

Thanks a lot! Will try these and come back if I have further doubts - much appreciated!
User avatar
shijan
Mitglied
Posts: 1675
Joined: Mon 23 Dec 2019 15:21
Location: Ukraine

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by shijan »

Image
1. Right Click on Eye icon in vector layer and switch it to "Clip Mode" Now it became a mask and you can drag it inside other layers and invert or change some other special mask settings in Layer Attributes panel.
2. Same, but apply to Raster layer and paint on it to create transparent areas. Before that you also need to turn off transparency and switch to Gray mode in Layer Attributes. This method will allow to use quality 16-bit depth layers as mask but only in current beta versions https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=7103 Automatic mask creation described by Hoogo still create only 8-bit mask. Note that Brushes are still 8-bit only, so you got 8-bit artifacts even if you paint on 16-bit mask https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=6776
3. There is a Placeholder object. Do you need something like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Oi95QJBUI
4. 3D-Body or maybe Bevel Layer Style?
5. Filter > External programs. First you need to add your preferred external app in Preferences->Extended->External Programns. You can also add hotkey and quick icon to toolbar for that task.
6. There are some tools in Photoline that needs long explanation, but i still prefer to use manual masking. There is no any AI in PhotoLine that could detect faces or mountains, but there is an object removal option, scaling with preserved objects (Liquid) and Remove Brush that is very similar to content aware in Ps. To generate AI stuff you can use free Krita AI Diffusion as described here https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 537#p52537

Try to read some quick tips here https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewforum.php?f=7
Also there is a Collection of Tutorials in English here https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=6301
Also my PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project may help you to improve UI look and feel and match it to other apps icons logic https://www.deviantart.com/shijan/art/825902404
Also recommended Herbert123's PhotoLine Basic Asset Library Project https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=7057

One thing that could be problematic and different compare to other apps is how PhotoLine use text. PhotoLine creates some sort of fixed frame around test and aligns to that frames instead of real edges of text letters.
It was described in details here https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 854#p50854
Image
Last edited by shijan on Sun 29 Sep 2024 21:00, edited 1 time in total.
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Herbert123 »

@Vivi_Ram Welcome to PhotoLine! You'll find it a quite capable app. My tool set includes Adobe (for work), Affinity and Xara, so I can compare and work with all of them. But my favourite core app is PhotoLine.

I agree that Affinity has too many paper cuts. I dislike working in it, because limitations tend to appear when I least expect or want it. And I doubt Canva acquiring Affinity is going to do it any good in the future. But we will see.

A couple of things to add to the previous answers:

[1] Vector layers can be parented to a content layer or group as a vector mask, or be layered on top of other layers in the layer stack. As @shijan explained, merely switching the vector layer to "Clip" will mask the other layer(s).

Don't forget to check the layer properties for quality-of-life vector mask options: under CLIPPING you'll find an option to blur the mask, and an option to invert the vector mask.

Also: multiple vector layers can be grouped, and then the group itself set to CLIP to create a layered clipping mask. Masks can also be cloned (virtual copy) and re-used throughout the layer stack. If you edit the source, those changes cascade in real-time in the clones.

I find that this clipping mask setup is quite flexible and allows quick and easy transformation of both the content and the mask:
2024-09-29 23_40_58-#1.png
[2] Many ways to achieve this. Look for the layer panel's LAYER MASK menu at the bottom of that panel for options. If you have an existing selection (lasso) then choose the "layer mask from mask" option. Then invert the mask ALT-i

In PhotoLine vector mask and bitmap masks can be combined freely in groups and sub-groups. There is no limit to layer stack depth for masking groups, unlike Affinity Photo. And any adjustment layer (where it makes sense) can be applied to masks (both vector and bitmap) as well. Experiment.

PS Gradient masks --even bitmap based ones-- are non-destructive and can be adjusted at any time with the gradient tool. This is quite unique to PhotoLine.

[3] Placeholders in PhotoLine behave exactly like Smart Objects in Photoshop.

Converting layer types is ridiculously obvious in PhotoLine once you learn how it works, but coming from other design apps it may be obscure at first. Basically just switch layer type in the Layer properties:
2024-09-29 23_50_31-#1.png
Selecting one or more layers or group(s) of layers and then changing that to a Placeholder embeds all those layers in a placeholder layer. That's it! (There is also a menu option: Layer-->Placeholder)
Right-mouse click to edit the contents.

PS to convert an image to vector: follow the same steps. Select an image layer, then switch to vector. PhotoLine will convert the image to vectors. It's so hidden, but it's a quite workable vector conversion.
Same with converting text to vectors: select the text layer, then change it to vectors. It will open a dialog with options.

PS2 Unlike other apps, it is also possible to add empty placeholder layers that can be used in a template to place content in. More or less frames as in InDesign (sort-of).

PS3 In PhotoLine all image bitmap layers that are imported or placed retain their original resolution, image mode, bit depth, and colour profile. No need for Smart Objects like in Photoshop. And editing the bitmap layers is supported directly in PhotoLine: just start painting or making destructive changes in these bitmap layers, and the original intent is maintained. This is not possible in Affinity, where the image layer must be converted to a raster layer. Again: quite unique to PhotoLine.

[4] Possible to an extent with the Effects-->3Dbody tool. Don't expect too much, though: Xara's 3D tool is far FAR more advanced. It's one of the reasons why I keep Xara around.

Although nowadays I do most of my 3d work in Blender. Import the vectors as SVG, extrude, bevel, and add materials and lighting. All in real-time with Eeevee, and it looks beautiful. Xara's 3d tools can't compare, of course. Just another level of quality and control, with the caveat of a more complex app! :-)

[5] Yes, links between PhotoLine and other design apps will work wonderfully well IF and WHEN the receiving app support saving the intermediate temp file in the same original location in the same file format.

Apps like Krita and Inkscape work very well. Obviously native functionality needs to be taken into account, but overall it is super duper.

The thing with Xara is that it does receive the PDF or SVG of the layer that is sent to it from PhotoLine. But when I save the file after making some edits PhotoLine will not pick up on the changes.

As far as I can tell the original SVG or PDF temp file is overwritten by Xara, but PhotoLine doesn't update the layer content. I did some testing, and Xara saves a Xara native file with the SVG or PDF extension, but doesn't actually export/save as SVG/PDF format.

So obviously PhotoLine can't read native XARA files. Saving a XARA file with a SVG or PDF extension isn't helpful either. This is not PhotoLine's fault, but a limitation in Xara. A workaround is to export the file from Xara as SVG or PDF and overwrite the original temporary file that PhotoLine sent to Xara, but unfortunately Xara's export doesn't maintain either the file name, nor the original file's location.

So not very workable, unfortunately. This can only be solved by Xara's developers. It is something I have run into with VectorStyler too. As long as the design app saves over the original temp file in the correct file format, PhotoLine's external app link will work like a charm.

[6] Up to a point, and it depends on the context. PhotoLine doesn't do AI background removal. The masking tools are quite good, but aren't exactly automatic and require manual intervention.

It does depend on the background and context, however. For example, a very useful color to transparency non-destructive filter adjustment layer is available in PhotoLine that removes solid colours quite effectively from images (like a keying filter in After Effects or Davinci Resolve). But do not expect an option to magically extract foreground objects from a landscape photo, for example.

Nowadays AI-driven solutions exist. Krita has a free plugin that will remove backgrounds using AI: https://github.com/agoulddesign/krita-bg-remove-bria

Other solutions abound on the web.

Hope this helps a bit!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Vivi_Ram
Mitglied
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2024 17:04

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Vivi_Ram »

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all this in detail. I appreciate it very much. What a pity that PhotoLine can't talk to Xara, through no fault of PhotoLine! That really would have been a killer combination. But hey ho, we work with what we have. I am going to give PhotoLine a serious chance. If it's as good as you say it is - and I have no reason to doubt you folks - then I might be able to ditch Affinity Photo & Photoshop wholesale. Frankly, after the Serif sell-out, I have very little hope for the apps - they're a part of the same enshittifying trajectory of design apps. Indie apps such as PhotoLine are the only relief in this desolate landscape.

And whilst I make this transition, please indulge my very basic questions about the way things are done in PhotoLine. I unfortunately haven't been able to find a lot tutorials on YT or elsewhere.
Vivi_Ram
Mitglied
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2024 17:04

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Vivi_Ram »

@Herbert123: Thanks again for the response. I am trying out Shijan's suggestions for new UI. I actually, surprisingly love the maximalist default colour UI of PhotoLine. It has the old software charm that I so badly miss in new software. Anyway, trying to import your asset library - I am not entirely sure how to load it up? I tried to go to the colour palette, right clicked, selected "merge" and loaded the file - but nothing happened. Any idea what I could be doing wrong here?

Your help is very appreciated - thank you!
User avatar
shijan
Mitglied
Posts: 1675
Joined: Mon 23 Dec 2019 15:21
Location: Ukraine

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by shijan »

Guess you need 24.40b10 or later version to make assets structure work. Download last beta version here https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=7103 it is safe to use because it is late beta and i gseems it is very close to next final final version.
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302
User avatar
Herbert123
Mitglied
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sat 12 May 2012 21:38

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Herbert123 »

Vivi_Ram wrote: Mon 30 Sep 2024 21:22 @Herbert123: Anyway, trying to import your asset library - I am not entirely sure how to load it up? I tried to go to the colour palette, right clicked, selected "merge" and loaded the file - but nothing happened. Any idea what I could be doing wrong here?

Your help is very appreciated - thank you!
As @shijan pointed out, a newer beta version of PhotoLine is required for those libraries to load correctly. I expect a new official release of PhotoLine to happen within a month or two (probably). The beta versions tend to run very stable. If a bug is found and reported the developers fix those by the next beta release.
/*---------------------------------------------*/
System: Win10 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), Nvidia GTX1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820, 2XSamsung SA850 (2560*1440) and 1XHP2408H 1920*1200 portrait
Vivi_Ram
Mitglied
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2024 17:04

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Vivi_Ram »

@Herbert123 and @Shijan: Thank you both, very much. That worked.
Vivi_Ram
Mitglied
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2024 17:04

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Vivi_Ram »

@Herbert123 and @Shijan: How are you?

Can I please request for a very quick explanation/video on how auto mask, mask brush, and border matting works? I can't figure it out, and the manual isn't quite clear to me. I also couldn't find an existing video on YT/Vimeo. I deeply appreciate your help - thanks!
Vivi_Ram
Mitglied
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat 28 Sep 2024 17:04

Re: Moving from Affinity Photo to PhotoLine - HELP!

Post by Vivi_Ram »

Hoogo wrote: Sun 29 Sep 2024 15:15 A lot of that can be done with the "layer mask". There's a menu entry "layer < layer mask..." for it, but there's also a more convenient button at the end of the layer list.
Layer mask.png
There are usually different ways to do things, here is how I would solve your topics:
1)
- In the layer list, move the vector layer above the image layer.
- Then select from the layer mask "convert for previous (CTRL+SHIFT+M)
2)
- Same menu, "Create mask (CTRL+SHIFT+X)". Make sure that the image layer is really selected.
- Then invert (ALT+I)
3)
There are "placeholders", but I'm not 100% sure what mockup template means. I guess some image that will later get replaced by the real image?
4) "Effects < 3D-Body" as a simple effect.
5) "Filter > External programs". Creates a tmp image file and starts the other program with that. Image in PL is updated when the other program is closed/image is saved.
6) Not really.
You can try the "quick selection tool", then "create layer mask from mask" from the layer mask menu. But that won't address fringes, semi transparency and stuff like that. There's the "border matting tool" that can address these problems, but that's all semi-automatic and not "non destructively". And good cutouts of complicated objects need manual work.
Hey @Hoogo! I just realised I never thanked you for your response. How rude of me! Sorry. Thank you very much for responding. It was very helpful!