Why can't I get curly quotes in PL?

[shijan]

Also Text tool missing Highlighted effect (auto generated rectangular solid background under the text). Adjustable rectangle color. Adjustable rectangle size (distance from text edges)Original request here https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 451#p52451


And also modern "fluid" rounded highlight option.
https://www.cssscript.com/rounded-text- ... g-filters/
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/480 ... agram-does

[Vivi_Ram]

Following up on my own older post on lists, here's one the things I frequently do for my clients: I create custom bullet points through symbols. Affinity allows this in a slightly more complex way, too. But it is very useful when you want to create interest in layout without looking boringly similar to everyone else.

Xara allows this through a simple right click and replace bullet list with symbol from clipboard.

Custom List-min.jpg

This is just a nice-to-have: not a must have, though.

[Martin Huber]

Like you @Vivi_Ram, text suddenly changes into random characters. This happens all the time in PhotoLine. No such issues in any other design software.

Well, I haven't seen that before and after investigating this problem, it only happens with certain fonts. So bug reports would have been really helpful.

Or I select a regular or other non-condensed type family member and suddenly that text changes to a condensed version.

This might be the same problem as above, but to clear this up: What fonts are affected? Of course, it is best, if the fonts are freely available.

Or the type family member list is populated with doubles, and it becomes unclear what the difference is between them. Or they don't seem to do anything.

Or I de-select bold or italics, and suddenly the font name turns red - indicating it does not exist. And I have to fix it by selecting another family member.

Again: What fonts? What do I have to do to reproduce this?

Last week I copied the AE ligature into a text box, and switched to a different font. It looked good. Then I exported the result and the AE ligature had switched to a different font. Even converting the text layer to a vector layer would not work: it switched to a different font. Yet it displayed correctly in PhotoLine. Sigh.

Where did you copy the text from? What font did you switch to?
Switching to a font that doesn't support all the needed characters should immediately set a font supporting that characters.

I agree with you that curly quotes should be the default.

Yes, quotes should be corrected automatically. But in order to work that correctly, we first have to implement a proper support of languages, so there won't be short term solution.

- Opentype features remain unexposed and inaccessible: small-caps, contextual alternates, ...

Yes, they should work on macOS via the macOS font panel, but on Window they are missing.

- no tracking (letter spacing) option: only kerning. Also something I mentioned a long long time ago. There is a reason why these are two separate things in typography. Kerning != Tracking

There is kerning (automatic font kerning) and tracking (the manual kerning that you can change in the Tool Settings).

- baseline shift: shifting a word or a character up or down: when it hits the previous or next text line's baseline the entire line moves up (or down). That is entirely counter-intuitive, and I have never seen this behaviour before in any design software.

I don't know about design software, but last time I checked any major word processor had the same behavior: The line distance is adjusted to the line content.
But you can always set an absolute line distance.

- real lists / bullets aren't supported.

Yes, they are missing, and if I remember correctly, you are the first one to ask for that. At least it is not often requested.

- justified with either last line centered and last line right aligned is missing.

I cannot assess the importance of those.

- character and paragraph styles cannot be edited in a separate dialog.

I don't know whether a dialog containing all text formatting options is advantageous to the current solution using the usual controls and then updating the text style.

- no optical margin alignment (I really miss this!). I fix this manually - just like in old times (30 years ago).

No comment for now, because you don't consider it too important yourself.

- coloured SVG fonts remain unsupported

Currently there are 4 colored font formats. Each major software company has one. If we start to support colored fonts, we have to support at least two of them (Adobe and Apple), which is quite a lot of work.

A small personal end note: With those lists, a priorization would really be helpful. And it would also be helpful, if other user could add whether or not they need that, too.

[Vivi_Ram]

Hello @Martin, thanks for the prompt response:

I realise that typography can be challenging to implement. This would be the top 3 of my wish-list: Default, automatic curly quotes, Opentype support, bullet list. Here are the reasons why I need them:

1. Default curly quotes: Typing in PhotoLine is virtually impossible for me without this. In my previous post I showed an example of the report I write and design. If I had to make full use of PL for the entire workflow, then I need this in place. I can copy/paste text from a text editor, but this means that if I want to change the text, I can only make changes in the text editor, copy and paste all over again. Not a viable option. The shortcut method does not work for me, since it disrupts rapid typing.

2.OpenType features: Contextual alternates, stylistic alternates, small caps - these are essential for a good-looking, modern-feeling DTP. I use them quite often in magazine work.

3. Bullet list: This is again essential for a continuous workflow within PhotoLine. I use bullet list a lot to break up long paragraphs.

[Vivi_Ram]

About the font error: I don't think it is a deal breaker for the time being. Because I've found a free alternative to Libre Caslon that works just as well, and it does not have the coding error. However, I am not sure about @Herbert_123's problem with AE glyph. It could be a related problem. Thanks!

I don't know whether a dialog containing all text formatting options is advantageous to the current solution using the usual controls and then updating the text style.

I DO agree with you here. I actually think it will become too much, with too many options and dialogue boxes. I am not going to use PhotoLine for very large DTP projects. Only during very large projects, with multiple nested levels of styles, do I work extensively with character and paragraph styling. I in fact create a template document with all the styles, colours, assets, guides, and FX, and only then begin to work. Otherwise, for small projects, I am happy to manually update the styles after changing it in contextual menu.

Others may feel differently about this, though.

[shijan]

A small personal end note: With those lists, a priorization would really be helpful. And it would also be helpful, if other user could add whether or not they need that, too.

I personally don't do a lot of text work and don't use all these advanced text options, so probably i don't qualified to discuss them. I only miss few basic text options described earlier: 1. snap to real characters edges instead of boxes, 2. use commonly used logic for text resize axis, 3. classic rectangle highlighted text effect and modern "fluid" rounded highlighted effect.

[Herbert123]

Like you @Vivi_Ram, text suddenly changes into random characters. This happens all the time in PhotoLine. No such issues in any other design software.

Well, I haven't seen that before and after investigating this problem, it only happens with certain fonts. So bug reports would have been really helpful.

Or I select a regular or other non-condensed type family member and suddenly that text changes to a condensed version.

This might be the same problem as above, but to clear this up: What fonts are affected? Of course, it is best, if the fonts are freely available.

Or the type family member list is populated with doubles, and it becomes unclear what the difference is between them. Or they don't seem to do anything.

Or I de-select bold or italics, and suddenly the font name turns red - indicating it does not exist. And I have to fix it by selecting another family member.

Again: What fonts? What do I have to do to reproduce this?

Here is a quick video recorded demonstrating that many(!) fonts will not work properly in PhotoLine:

https://gofile.io/d/Rf81ik

I do not encounter these issues in other design software. Problems arise with fonts from good font foundries, but also with lesser quality fonts.

Tested this in PhotoLine, InDesign, VectorStyler, ...

[Herbert123]

Last week I copied the AE ligature into a text box, and switched to a different font. It looked good. Then I exported the result and the AE ligature had switched to a different font. Even converting the text layer to a vector layer would not work: it switched to a different font. Yet it displayed correctly in PhotoLine. Sigh.

Where did you copy the text from? What font did you switch to?
Switching to a font that doesn't support all the needed characters should immediately set a font supporting that characters.

Here is a video that demonstrates the issue.

https://gofile.io/d/Z4Isl9

[Herbert123]

I agree with you that curly quotes should be the default.

Yes, quotes should be corrected automatically. But in order to work that correctly, we first have to implement a proper support of languages, so there won't be short term solution.

- Opentype features remain unexposed and inaccessible: small-caps, contextual alternates, ...

Yes, they should work on macOS via the macOS font panel, but on Window they are missing.

- real lists / bullets aren't supported.

Yes, they are missing, and if I remember correctly, you are the first one to ask for that. At least it is not often requested.

- justified with either last line centered and last line right aligned is missing.

I cannot assess the importance of those.

- no optical margin alignment (I really miss this!). I fix this manually - just like in old times (30 years ago).

No comment for now, because you don't consider it too important yourself.

All of these are expected and implicit to any design/layout software! Users shouldn't be asking for these obvious typography options -- they should be standard.

As for my optical margin alignment request: I think you've completely misread my comment. It is ESSENTIAL to have this in a modern design app that supports DTP. The fact that I am manually fixing these costs a LOT of time - but I downplayed it somewhat because I probably can't expect PhotoLine to have this before all the other missing type functionality...

Please do not misunderstand my comments: I love working in PhotoLine. But the typography engine seems to have been stuck in the 90s.

For example, optical kerning is also an expected option nowadays aside from metric.

Of course, I care about the typography in my work. From what I can tell, PhotoLine's typography seems more on the level of Microsoft Word -- which is fine for an office worker, but any designer who cares about nice typography will find the experience extremely painful in PhotoLine.

[Herbert123]

- no tracking (letter spacing) option: only kerning. Also something I mentioned a long long time ago. There is a reason why these are two separate things in typography. Kerning != Tracking

There is kerning (automatic font kerning) and tracking (the manual kerning that you can change in the Tool Settings).

2024-11-16 12_57_32-#1.png

Where are the letter and word tracking options located? I only see the manual kerning option.

These should be separate options in the type settings.

[Vivi_Ram]

@herbert_123: I agree with you. I'd love to have all these features in PL. I also want them to be implemented in a way that's cohesive. After continuously ranting in affinity forums about the scatter gun approach they've taken to their UX, I'm really cautious what I wish for.

Anyway, having said that, could you please add a priority list, too? I'd like to see yours. I hope you see my top 3 as deal breakers as far DTP goes in PL. I only chose 3 because I'm sure the developers are squeezed for time. I, too, would want all of the above.

Maybe 25 can be a pure DTP feature release. I don't know. As I said before just for the functionality, I'm happy to pay again. I've thrown enough money at Adobe and Affinity. I'd rather support PL over those other two.

[Herbert123]

A small personal end note: With those lists, a prioritization would really be helpful. And it would also be helpful, if other user could add whether or not they need that, too.

The way I see it:

[1] proper font and language support (which would fix the main issues: open-type, languages, etc.)

[2] absolute leading with automatic calculated leading based on relative leading

[3] proper kerning, letter/word tracking.

[4] automatic quotes, support to insert special typographic characters (dashes, etc.), automatic bullets

[5] improved paragraph composer (justified aligned text)

[6] optical kerning

[7] optical margin alignment for text frames/boxes

[8] additional options to work with the baseline grid (text register): first line only, override specific text frames with custom baseline options.

These would be good foundation to update PhotoLine's typography engine into this century
Other things such as how text boxes are framed are not included (sorry @shijan).

I am aware these changes / improvements would probably mean a rewrite of the text engine in PhotoLine. So possibly a better idea to just leave it alone, and focus on other things that may be of more importance to most users here, because I have a feeling most PhotoLine users aren't too interested in excellent typography features.

[Herbert123]

@Vivi_Ram

I feel your first three points and my first 5 points are sort-of required for good typography. Optical kerning, optical margin alignment make things a whole lot easier, and are required for longer documents.

In regard to longer documents (such as your previously posted example): some sort of master page or master layer functionality should be implemented as well. This is the one other wall that I keep running into: any other design app with pages and layout control offers one or more ways to insert content that is repeated automatically across pages.

Except PhotoLine! I've worked around this limitation via virtual layers (duplicates), but it isn't a very workable method when the number of pages hits more than ~10 pages, or so.

My other missing "favourite" feature is a reusable symbols library / panel.

It's SO frustrating, because it's SO nice overall to work in PhotoLine for me - but for these really basic omissions that are default in other design apps.

[Vivi_Ram]

I am aware these changes / improvements would probably mean a rewrite of the text engine in PhotoLine. So possibly a better idea to just leave it alone, and focus on other things that may be of more importance to most users here, because I have a feeling most PhotoLine users aren't too interested in excellent typography features.

Whilst I agree that this would probably require serious a code rewrite, I am not sure I'd see it as less important.

DTP capabilities that you and I have highlighted are hygiene needs for a modern photo editing and vector tool.

Consider for a moment that even inkscape and krita's rather mediocre text engines support curly quotes, opentype features and such.

I wanted to put together a seamless Instagram reel for a client. Today. And lack of these features made switch to affinity publisher though I really wanted to use PL. Thanks to Placeholder layer function.

Yesterday, I wanted to do a magazine mock up for a real client. Again, ended up using Affinity Publisher instead of PL.

That's why I said, this can be a long term project, perhaps PL25. but it's definitely a serious necessity. And I'm certain it will be a deal breaker for anyone I suggest PL to.

[Vivi_Ram]

Here's the final list @Martin:

MUST-HAVE TEXT CAPABILITIES

[1] Proper font and language support (which would fix the main issues: open-type, languages, etc.)

[2] Absolute leading with automatic calculated leading based on relative leading

[3] proper kerning, letter/word tracking.

[4] automatic quotes, support to insert special typographic characters (dashes, etc.), automatic bullets - <<This is my top priority

[5] improved paragraph composer (justified aligned text)

NICE-TO-HAVE TEXT CAPABILITIES


[6] optical kerning

[7] optical margin alignment for text frames/boxes

[8] additional options to work with the baseline grid (text register): first line only, override specific text frames with custom baseline options.
[/quote]

Thank you!!!