Page Layout

[5ar5renko]

PL can attract more users if they make another interface that looks like Photoshop and with same shortcuts, as CorelDRAW has made with Illustrator interface.

[Sus]

PL can attract more users if they make another interface that looks like Photoshop ...

True, but who needs another PS ?

[bkh]

PL already has automatic page numbers (Layout -> Text -> Insert text fields) – put a (virtual) copy on another page and it will show the correct page number.

And you do the same to the other 325 pages (more or less) manually in 5, 6 seconds? Very quick and easy.

No, you just add the page number text field in a text layer in the source group (assuming that you have a virtual copy of that group on every page, as described in my earlier post). Takes less than 5 or 6 seconds. And with an additional command to make virtual copies on every page, this could be done afterwards as well. But even as long as this possibility doesn't exist, you could copy that "master page" to 300 pages in a few minutes (probably even faster with an action doing 10 pages at a time, say).

Burkhard.

[greenmorpher]

The kind of things being talked about by (I believe) some non- or very low level DTP users in respect of master pages and auto page numbering are cumbersome.

If you have master pages, they simply do the auto page numbering. What about different sections, etc., etc.? There comes a point where you have to make a decision about what you want your application to be. If you want top flexibility in publication construction, you use InDesign. If you want top performance in handling raster and vector, you get raster or vector programs.

If you want the best integrated app that covers all these areas, you get Canvas. Full stop, as far as I am concerned. And when you want stuff like variations in page numbering for difference sections, you split the job up into multiple publications and merge them in PDF. That is a trade-off you make for the ease of production with a fully integrated UI that allows you to handle raster, vector, type, and DTP functions all on the same page.

The discussion about groups and layers with vectors should reference Canvas too. Have a look at how it handles this stuff. I think it is superior. Also copying stuff page to page or layer to layer. Also multiple copies within a page.

One thing Canvas doesn't do which ought to be done is tracing stuff. PL could do with a bit of that. I believe Illustrator is good for that now.

Someone else mentioned duotones. And triotones. PL should be all over this as a primarily raster app.

I remember one little tool that I liked in FreeHand -- a vector nudge tool. You have a line, you want to change its shape, you could choose the circumference (and I think shape) of a tool you could nudge that line with. The new points required were generated automatically.

There was another app back in the day called, I think, Sketch, which Adobe sucked up at some time. It was a postscript vector drawing app, but every line was an outline with fill. Further, when lines intersected, they could automatically become a shape. So you had two lines crossing, and they could automatically become a cross shaped outline. Very handy.

There is another direction that PL could go in -- I am not saying should. That is high level storage and cataloging of pix. I am thinking Lightroom and Aperture. It looks very much as though Aperture is effectively dead, although Apple might introduce something like an upgraded iPhoto, and Lightroom has just gone on to the rent financial model which makes a lot of people nervous -- and rightly so.

As a result, there might be an opportunity for moving in that direction.

Cheers, geoff

[evren]

Discussion is so funny for me because of sticking on secondary topics.
My +1's with herbert and greenmorpher since they touched exact points which are much more vital and neccessary before mambo jambo details.
If someone really working with vectors (me %30 raster %70 vector) must be in realize of more important topics waiting for next move.

There is still no knife tool and that scissor is too far to fill the gap
No way to connect vectors. There is a pen like tool (connect vector paths etc.) but I can make it work maybe 1 in 10 scenarios. Like do not exist for me.
MORE important than it is, PL can not weld or merge vectors. For anyone will say NO it can do, here comes the small test.
> Create a square with 4 lines.
> Try to connect lines ends to each other. Doesn't work?
> Ok so just dock the line ends (you can use align auto guides) and complete your square.
> Select all line vectors and command UNION (ops no)
> So select all and command Merge Merked Vector Layers (looks like done but)
> Now try to color inside your square (to see that still no)
Normally it must be done with dragging and dropping vector end points over each other.

Vector objects can not be resized in normal logic. For anyone will say NO it can do, here comes the small test.
> Create a picture with 1000x1000 px
> Create a square etc. ALT+S and resize it to 500x500
> Click on square ALT+S and resize it to 100x100
> Now click again and resize it to 1000x1000 (ops)
Solution is to click FIX each time. A real time killer for people working with vectors.

If there is a way but I don't know or discovered yet. Please help me since I'm really fighting with designs because of those.

And while I'm dealing with those, an advanced DTP features sound me like finding a steak in somalia and fighting for the spice of it.

All bests
Evren

[photoken]

No way to connect vectors.

Of course there is. Start with these lines (on their own layers):

lines for shape.png

When you read the Help, you'll find that the vector objects need to be on the same layer to connect to each other, so use the "Merge Marked Vector Layers" command in the Layers palette to get the lines on the same layer. Then use the Connect Vector Paths tool to connect the appropriate end points. Now you can fill the shape:

lines with filled shape.png

Your criticism that the "UNION" command didn't work is groundless because there were no vector shapes on which to perform the union.

[5ar5renko]

If you have master pages, they simply do the auto page numbering. What about different sections, etc., etc.?

What you wrote says to me that you never deal with DTP.

Master pages do the following:
1. Auto page numbering
2. Every object(s) inserted on master page(s) is shown on the page(s) associated with that master page(s)
3. Headers and Footers
4. Running Headers and Footers
5. Different page layout for starting chapters, indices, TOC...
...

If you want the best integrated app that covers all these areas, you get Canvas.

Yes, but PL can run from USB, is significantly smaller, is faster, 32/64 bit, runs on Mac/Win...
So, why PL can not be much better Canvas? If you don't like it it does not mean that the others don't like it, too.
Full stop.

And while I'm dealing with those, an advanced DTP features sound me like finding a steak in somalia and fighting for the spice of it.

Yes, because your point of interest is not DTP (and vector drawing, maybe).

[evren]

Of course there is.

I'm sorry there is no. Functions working with caprice can not be used in complex production.
Before giving the example, would like to drop note again.
First of all, as I told before we the human kind have different characters and variable ways of communication. Maybe??? due to my understanding I found most of your communication offensive. You explain no you are not, and I admit, I told ok maybe my lack of understanding but I feel it like that. That's why I demanded several times to not even reply me. Please, it's stressing me. Consider that I even do not exist. Now examples...

vector.jpg

A) If you want to connect 2 on top of each other, no way...
B) You must put distance between them to use.
C) Result is a third line due to nature. It draws a line between points. There is no way to connect points directly.
D) And when it come to real life examples
E) God bless who can be able to connect those vectors.

Sample.pld

I'm not a photo retoucher trying to discover vectors. I'm dealing with them all day.
And I just replied to explain that nothing seems as it is in theory.
And let me please in my own. Let's ignore each other as I offered many times.

Edit: I found another topic you also offered the way I explained before me. So we both agree on what it needs.

AND

Yes, because your point of interest is not DTP (and vector drawing, maybe).

Just to share one fact that, I never ignored the need for DTP features. Simply I want to mention is there are several critic needs on way to solve in priority. And since you ask for DTP means you also design catalogs, documents supported with visuals etc. So you also can not run away of using vectors I think you use frequently.
Do not take people's replies in wrong manner. Who doesn't wants PL to be more powerful? What community (nearly all except a few) scare of is to make PL just another bloatware. It is extemely fast and can run portable in native speeds. What I saw from all discussions since I join is, people become defensive when some complex demands or interface beautifying demands (yes I found this useless also) arrive, they oppose.

For me all those unneccessary since programming is not something also simple as it seems. I'm also in industry. For me best way is, people demands and Huber brothers will consider performance under any case. If possible I'm sure they will integrate when time will arrive.

For me PL is already feature rich without sacrifying from performance. I just stick on simple bug or usability fixes.

All bests
Evren

[Gerhard Huber]

E) God bless who can be able to connect those vectors.

I don't know, what you want to get as an result, but here is a little video:
http://youtu.be/gu4ou62MdkI

Gerhard

[evren]

I don't know, what you want to get as an result, but here is a little video

So, god bless you mr Gerhard :) my aimed result is exactly what shown on video. Just I was not expecting that cutting the line will cause other corner to connect (jump) automatically due to "close path" command.
If there will be drag and connect (vector points) like feature, there will be no confusess like that.

All bests
Evren

[bkh]

E) God bless who can be able to connect those vectors.

OK, let's have a closer look: I've coloured the edge in black and changed the fill colour to grey to make things a bit clearer.

connect points.png

The vector shapes in PL are (filled) Bézier curves, which means that every point has two neighbours (except for the start/end points, which have just one – C and D, in this case). You can only glue together points which have one neighbour, so in this case, you first have to separate A and B and then glue A to D and B to C. (I guess that most cases where the glue tool doesn't let you select points which are not start/end points.)

In detail:

1) use the scissor tool to cut the line between A and B
2) remove the points inserted by the scissor tool
3) use the "Connect Vector Paths" (glue) tool to connect A to D
4) use the "Connect Vector Paths" tool to connect B to C

Cheers

Burkhard.

[greenmorpher]

If you have master pages, they simply do the auto page numbering. What about different sections, etc., etc.?

What you wrote says to me that you never deal with DTP.

Master pages do the following:
1. Auto page numbering
2. Every object(s) inserted on master page(s) is shown on the page(s) associated with that master page(s)
3. Headers and Footers
4. Running Headers and Footers
5. Different page layout for starting chapters, indices, TOC...

I was simply commenting on the matter of page numbering not setting out all the functions of master pages. I know what master pages do. I was a pioneer of DTP on Mac in 1985 and produced my last book in Canvas just a few years ago. See www.worsleypress.com/Great_Ads_Free_Preview.pdf

Master pages do not necessarily do anything in 5. Depends on the app. They certainly don't do indices and TOC, that is done by other parts of the app, and headers and footers, of course, do not rely on master pages since the most feeble word processor can do them and they do not have master pages.

If you want the best integrated app that covers all these areas, you get Canvas.

Yes, but PL can run from USB, is significantly smaller, is faster, 32/64 bit, runs on Mac/Win...
So, why PL can not be much better Canvas? If you don't like it it does not mean that the others don't like it, too.

Is running off a USB that important? I have an SSD in my laptop for maximum speed. USB is a lot slower. And would PL as a full blown DTP app run off a USB? I rather doubt it. It would be hugely bloated compared with what it is now. And yes, PL could be made into something that covers all the functions Canvas has, but the experience of the small team which built Canvas tells me that the two brothers could not do the work on their own and then…

They would have to hire a dozen or two dozen people.

The final nail in the coffin for your call for a DTP program that would be the equivalent of current PL with every function of InDesign added is that few would buy it. That was/is a problem for Canvas in the end! The integrated program market was/is too small. People have been sucked into "the standard" -- the Adobe bundle.

Cheers, geoff

[photoken]

Edit: I found another topic you also offered the way I explained before me. So we both agree on what it needs.

When you (or anyone) posts a message that contains inaccuracies I will reply. When I think a message shows a lack of understanding of the procedures, I will question it and ask for clarification.

Deal with it.

For the specific situation where the end points lie on top of each other, I refined the definition of the problem and posted a request for an enhancement.

[evren]

I guess that most cases where the glue tool doesn't let you select points which are not start/end points.

This sentence summarises all the story which causes most of problems.

Actually I even didn't try to use scissors. Due to habits on vector manipulations, attempt to scissors shouldn't be necessary. And yes, glue tool is something not useful for me since works less than 10% of trials. So the reason now become clear. Glue is just for start/end. Thanks for mentioning this detail.

Now other question appears.
> PL doesn't have a tool like "weld" in corel (don't know photoshop) which acts non-sense, just welds without deforming the shape.
> Glue only works in start and end points
> scissors adding new control points to clean up after
> merging vector layers is just a merge in same layer, out of topic.
It's sounding me like "intentionally" limited vector environment.

Because non-closed paths (in real manner) and glue complexness and difficulties other commands also acts weird.
The intersection, difference, union and exclusion commands causing awkward results and you can not expect same results in similar cases. I know that the reason is vectorial path closing (in real manner) problem. But in my first months with PL, I was thinking that it is buggy.

[bkh]

PL doesn't have a tool like "weld" in corel (don't know photoshop) which acts non-sense, just welds without deforming the shape.

Again, I have no idea what it's supposed to do (I would expect something like "union"). I don't have Corel. It would be really helpful if you gave an example.

The intersection, difference, union and exclusion commands causing awkward results and you can not expect same results in similar cases.
I know that the reason is vectorial path closing (in real manner) problem. But in my first months with PL, I was thinking that it is buggy.

Actually, I think it is buggy if non-closed paths are involved – I think that it would have been good to just report these problems when they arise. (I'll file a bug report in the beta testers forum.) The developers usually are very responsive in this regard.

Cheers,

Burkhard.