PhotoLine and its competitors

Here everybody can post his problems with PhotoLine
Simon
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von Simon »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben:The cut tool works exceedingly well!
I wonder if the forum manager may move Herbert123 and this comments into a new post, because both are about the Cut Tool instead of Photoline competitors.

Well, here is what I did:
1. Draw a star.
2. Click the Cut Vector Path then the vector points appeared.
3. Click to create the first and second cut points over the strokes of the star. They appear as new vector points.
4.1. First issue trying to select one of the resulting figures. How can you realize which figure is in front?:
a) Using the Edit Vector Points tool I selected the points of a resulted figure, one of the new points was a "rhomboid" instead of a "square".
b) I tried to move the figure with the selected points but they did not belong to the desired one, because it was in the back.
4.2 Second issue trying to reshape one of the figures. A vector point made by the cut tool can not be deleted.
a) Using the Delete Vector Point tool tried unsuccessfully to remove the "rhomboid" vector point from the image created in the back. Such point correspond to the first click of the cut tool.

What I am doing wrong? Is it possible you are using a different version?
Zuletzt geändert von Simon am So 14 Sep 2014 06:25, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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photoken
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von photoken »

Simon hat geschrieben:
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:The cut tool works exceedingly well!
I wonder if the forum manager may move Herbert123 and this comments into a new post, because both are about the Cut Tool instead of Photoline competitors.
Yes. This discussion about the Cut tool is valuable, but would be more appropriate as its own message thread.

Let's keep this discussion thread focused on PhotoLine and its competitors -- what feature areas of other image editing programs do you dislike, what areas of other programs have you seen other users of those programs complaining about, etc.

The idea is to provide some feedback about features and capabilities of PhotoLine that will appeal to (or solve problems for) users of its competitors' products. Again, not so much as specific bug reports or wish lists, but rather as general areas that might appeal to those users.
Ken
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Herbert123
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von Herbert123 »

About Photoshop Elements: there is a "power plugin" that opens up Elements for more professional work:

http://thepluginsite.com/products/elementsxxl/

With this PSe gets all sorts of features that Photoshop offers, and some are actually an improvement over the original. 16bpc is a bit of a hack though: the 16bit data is saved in the 8bit layers.

GIMP: the users of GIMP fall in several categories:
1) die-hard open source proponents. These will put up with limitations, even if it means hard work on their part.
2) users looking for free Photoshop alternatives. GIMP invariably always heads these lists online.

Most users are aware of GIMP, whether for better or worse. Users tend to complain about:
- the GUI (which is why users have taken to creating versions like GIMPshop, which looks and feels more like Photoshop)
- the lack of 16bpc / cmyk / lab modes. 16bpc is being implemented.
- the clunky workflow, no adjustment layers, no layer effects.

That said, GIMP is used by a wide variety of users, from beginners to experienced ones, and for all sorts of work. Photoline is arguably much more powerful, but GIMP does have one Ace on its sleeve: scripting. Anyone can script new tools.

Same holds true for Acorn: for some reason or other even Acorn is more well known across the web than Photoline. It always gets mentioned, alongside Pixelmator, as Photoshop alternatives. Acorn also supports a nice scripting interface. I feel this lack of a scripting interface on the part of Photoline is its biggest caveat at this point, compared to most of the competitors. Even PS Elements gains scripting through ElementsXXL.

In the last two years I have been promoting Photoline on all the forums where I am active, and one of the other questions I invariably receive is: does Photoline have a refine edge function comparable to Photoshop? It does not, of course. The current edge refining tools in Photoline are difficult and awkward to use - I never get anything near the quality of Photoshop's refine edge command, and certainly not within the short amount of time it takes in Photoshop). I use Topaz Remask to take care of this work currently, but this type of functionality ought to be part of Photoline's base tool set. I have seen a number of people avoiding Photoline because of the lack of an easy to use and powerful "refine edge" command.

Another important competitor to PL is Pixelmator. Pixelmator is everything Photoline is not: Pixelmator is sexy. Pixelmator has great marketing. Pixelmator is cool, and Mac only. But ask anyone on a Windows machine, and they would love to see Pixelmator ported to Windows. Pixelmator has a great looking website, as well as awesome looking tutorials - everything to lure in new users. And it is very inexpensive.

All of these products are not in the same league as Photoline, but they are more known in user circles - although once users have really tried Photoline, the general consensus seems to be that, except for Photoshop, the other applications cannot keep up with PL.

Another thing many users agree about is that Photoline is NOT for beginners, and only accessible to experienced image editing users. I blame the lack of high quality tutorials and documentation on the web - it's almost painfully void of these! There are books for GIMP, Pixelmator, PSe... Many video tutorials. Nothing seems available for Photoline. It's a bit like the chicken and the egg: to attract (semi)professional users, professional looking content is required - but there aren't that many professionals using Photoline.
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Herbert123
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von Herbert123 »

Ah, I understand now: the tool you use is not actually the new cut tool! Yes, the Cut Vector Path tool is very awkward in use. However, the new vector layer cut option is very easy and straightforward. Try this: draw a star, then draw a box. Rotate/scale/skew the box to create a shape that you'd like to use as a shape for cutting into the star. Then select both the star and the box. Now right-mouse click the star layer in the layer pane, and choose "cut". Done! You can now move the cut shape with the regular object tool, or hide it. And the cut is very precise.

I no longer use the Cut Vector Path tool - I prefer the new vector layer cut option. Quick, easy, and precise. And the cut out shapes remain available, if required.

This also works with simple lines, btw: there is no need for a cutting shape to be closed.

Apologies for junking up this thread with this off-topic discussion. This was my last post relating to "cutting: - perhaps a moderator could move this part of the discussion in a new thread?
Simon hat geschrieben:
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:The cut tool works exceedingly well!
I wonder if the forum manager may move Herbert123 and this comments into a new post, because both are about the Cut Tool instead of Photoline competitors.

Well, here is what I did:
1. Draw a star.
2. Click the Cut Vector Path then the vector points appeared.
3. Click to create the first and second cut points over the strokes of the star. They appear as new vector points.
4.1. First issue trying to select one of the resulting figures. How can you realize which figure is in front?:
a) Using the Edit Vector Points tool I selected the points of a resulted figure, one of the new points was a "rhomboid" instead of a "square".
b) I tried to move the figure with the selected points but they did not belong to the desired one, because it was in the back.
4.2 Second issue trying to reshape one of the figures. A vector point made by the cut tool can not be deleted.
a) Using the Delete Vector Point tool tried unsuccessfully to remove the "rhomboid" vector point from the image created in the back. Such point correspond to the first click of the cut tool.

What I am doing wrong? Is it possible you are using a different version?
/*---------------------------------------------*/
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photoken
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von photoken »

123 -- Great analysis of those other programs, and especially what you've found the other users of those apps are looking to improve. Many thanks!

I agree about the "refine edge" feature. PL's "Border Matting" is very nice as it is, but a powerful tool to refine the edges around hair would be very welcome.

One note about the third-party add-ins for PSE: I used Elements+ and considered it an absolute must-have. What Adobe did with PSE was to re-use the Photoshop code and simply disable (or hide) the Photoshop features they did not want PSE to have. Because Photoshop has extensive documentation about its object model, one can write scripts to access some of those features and that is what Elements+ does. Even so, although Elements+ can give PSE a Curves adjustment as a layer, that layer isn't a true adjustment layer because the settings for the Curve cannot be changed later -- you have to delete the Curves layer and start from scratch, or go through the cumbersome process of saving the Curves settings as an external file and later loading that file.

The lack of scripting is one thing that PSE and PSP have and PL doesn't. However, I'm not sure how useful that would really be for PL, because just about all of PL's functions can be included in actions.... I used to think that scripting was really important, but now I'm not so sure. The scripting in PSE and PSP seems to be of most use to either access features not otherwise available (in the case of PSE), or (in the case of PSP) to streamline the procedures used in its recorded macros.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:Another thing many users agree about is that Photoline is NOT for beginners, and only accessible to experienced image editing users.
Yes, I've seen comments like that, too. A lot of those criticisms should be discounted, I think. Especially if those criticisms come from PSE users who are very naïve not only about computers in general, but also image editing in particular. With PSP users, it seems to me that it's because they are so used to doing things the way PSP does it that they really feel lost when something is the slightest bit different.

There's no doubt that PL requires the user to think, and that's not pleasant for many people. For example, PL has no setting or adjustment anywhere that is labeled "Clarity"; but if one understands what "Clarity" does in image editing, one can find at least three ways of accomplishing the same thing in PL.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:I blame the lack of high quality tutorials and documentation on the web - it's almost painfully void of these!
I agree. There are some concepts in PL (like Masks and selections (the Lasso)) that are just different enough from the way PSE and PSP do it to cause frustration for those who check out the trial version of PL. I know that I'm still struggling a little bit at times with those concepts, and have to do a few "trial and error" attempts to get it right.
Zuletzt geändert von photoken am So 14 Sep 2014 09:44, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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Hoogo
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von Hoogo »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben:...one of the other questions I invariably receive is: does Photoline have a refine edge function comparable to Photoshop? It does not, of course. The current edge refining tools in Photoline are difficult and awkward to use - I never get anything near the quality of Photoshop's refine edge command, and certainly not within the short amount of time it takes in Photoshop...
I lack comparison to PS, but all the lasso tools have a button "enhance edge". That's surely not difficult, but I would expect that function in the menu under "tool > mask".
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Juan
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von Juan »

I have been checking some comparisons over the web and at the end of the day there is a common thing that every mention... the "outdated" UI (I just put it in nice words) and documentation.
Besides of this points that were remarked earlier in this topic, PL excels in the rest like "Photoline’s bugs get addressed the most quickly" taken from http://loewald.com/blog/?p=1783.
There is another list that for me it´s fair from the same site http://loewald.com/blog/?p=5241 and here another one, but this one a little outdated http://macapper.com/2008/01/20/photolin ... ternative/.
Of course we can talk about features that could be added into PL just to make it a step closer to what PS users are used to in order to call more audience into PL, but I guess the main point is (if we listen the people/comments out there) is to redefine the UI, even if it´s start only from the website.
We all can help, there was an old topic somewhere here were everybody was contributing for the splash screen and there was some really good ones, but it fell into the forgotten sands... http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... ash+screen and http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... n&start=30
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asharpe
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von asharpe »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben:I blame the lack of high quality tutorials and documentation on the web - it's almost painfully void of these! There are books for GIMP, Pixelmator, PSe... Many video tutorials. Nothing seems available for Photoline.
This is true, especially for non-German speakers. Even this forum has a ton of information... in German. So, I cannot avail myself of it. This "international" category has a lot of good information, and indeed, the authors of the tool readily respond here, which is the only reason that I can work as efficiently as I do with Photoline. But more English tutorials and videos would be greatly appreciated. See http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4126
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Hoogo
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

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Juan hat geschrieben:...were everybody was contributing for the splash screen and there was some really good ones, but it fell into the forgotten sands... http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... ash+screen and http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... n&start=30
Oh yes, these were fun :)
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OldRadioGuy
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von OldRadioGuy »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben:
In the last two years I have been promoting Photoline on all the forums where I am active, and one of the other questions I invariably receive is: does Photoline have a refine edge function comparable to Photoshop? It does not, of course. The current edge refining tools in Photoline are difficult and awkward to use - I never get anything near the quality of Photoshop's refine edge command, and certainly not within the short amount of time it takes in Photoshop). I use Topaz Remask to take care of this work currently, but this type of functionality ought to be part of Photoline's base tool set. I have seen a number of people avoiding Photoline because of the lack of an easy to use and powerful "refine edge" command.
One of my pet peeves with PhotoLine, and just one of the reasons I often turn to plugins. Although many of these tasks can be done with PL, the plugins are more efficient. For cutouts, Topaz ReMask and onOne Perfect Mask are much better than PhotoLine's convoluted procedure.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:
All of these products are not in the same league as Photoline, but they are more known in user circles - although once users have really tried Photoline, the general consensus seems to be that, except for Photoshop, the other applications cannot keep up with PL.
Really tried is the important point here. I suspect most potential users are turned away by what they see in the interface and the dearth of learning assistance for English speakers before they "really try" the product. It's apparent to me that a significant number of reviewers don't take the time to fully understand PL before they write their evaluations -- that is, if they write more than the canned material provided by the publisher.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben: Another thing many users agree about is that Photoline is NOT for beginners, and only accessible to experienced image editing users. I blame the lack of high quality tutorials and documentation on the web - it's almost painfully void of these! There are books for GIMP, Pixelmator, PSe... Many video tutorials. Nothing seems available for Photoline. It's a bit like the chicken and the egg: to attract (semi)professional users, professional looking content is required - but there aren't that many professionals using Photoline.
When the PL Quick Selection and Border Matting tools duo were introduced, the demo used a zebra for demonstration purposes, as I recall. No soap bubbles, no wedding veils, no long-haired women. How was that for a way to awe the professionals?

Here in the states, university students studying photography, graphics design and similar fields use Photoshop and Illustrator in their courses. So, they enter the profession with a bias, and are usually unwilling to spend the time necessary to learn new software like PhotoLine later in their careers. Certainly, most amateur photographers want a product that's easier to learn, easier to use and a base of users from which they can get information about extending the use of the product. Only a small subset of potential users in these groups could be categorized as geeks or tinkerers willing to climb the mountain.

Bob
PhotoLine 24.xx |DxO PureRAW 4 |Various Third-Party Plugins | macOS 14.11 | Apple M2 Max | 64 GB Memory | E-M1markIII.
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greenmorpher
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von greenmorpher »

And whllew we are talking about this stuff, let me put my oar in.

I, too, promote PL whenever I get the chance, particularly on the photo forums I contribute to, but I know all too well that it will not be taken up.

There is an old saying in marketing that you should offer your key difference(s) and promote those -- but they should not be TOO different; maybe 10% different. And they should be set in a solid foundation of the conventional -- or the apparently conventional.

I departed Photoshop at v.5.5. I am quite sure that given super geekness (of which I am not in possession) I could do all or nearly all in PS 5.5 that I can do in PL or the current PS -- or at least, all I want to do. However it would involve delving into the deeps, which I don't want to do.

So in today's world (and my 73rd year) I want some nifty tools where I can just click the button and everything happens -- and I want terms used that make sense to me in plain English (or German or whatever language is my mother or work tongue) from my point of view as a user of the program.

Someone mentioned a "Clarity" tool. Yep -- that's what I need. I know there are ways to achieve it, but approximately 70 years ago I was the kid in kindergarten (yes, that is what we called them in Australia) finger panting who could take any two or three colors, mix them, and inevitably end up with muddy brown. I have retained this remarkable talent all my life and now I can do it on a computer.

If I want "Clarity" now I go to the Topaz Adjust plug-in, click the button, and get it. Then starting from that safe base, I can start making micro-adjustments to get exactly what I want. If it all goes muddy brown, I click "Reset" then click "Clarity" again and it is all back to where I started.

So easy.

THAT is the sort of ease of use -- available within PL itself -- that would help attract new users, and since it uses PL's existing capabilities, it would be just a matter of light code to put it together -- or even making it an action but not necessarily a public one; i.e. don't put it in the Actions menu but hide the fact that it is an action behind a menu command or a button or something.

Adding something to the interface, like the Topaz Adjust interface where you get a bunch of sliders showing you the current settings and which you can alter, would also be very handy. That might be getting a bit more complex than we want to be, though.

Let me give an example of this: in Canvas X (and a little earlier, I think) there is a facility in the Images menu called "Trim to Path". Now what you do is this: you have a photo and you want to trim to the shape of a vector path. So you set up the photo to size, then draw the vector path on top of it (in a recent case, this was as simple as rounded corners rectangles), select both, then click on Trim to Path. You can actually see Canvas X going through the motions (it is 9 years since it was supported :)). In fact, what you see is a script at work (Canvas has scripting built-in) which simply does what you could always to in Canvas, but it is scripted.

And what you could always do in Canvas is much the same as how you can achieve Trim to Path in PL -- having set the photo to size, you draw your vector path (filled), than change the path to a lasso, then move from the Lasso menu to the Mask menu and invert mask, then delete. And there you have your picture in its chosen shape.

Canvas's simple single menu item made all these moves unnecessary -- and if you wanted to reverse it, you did that in one command-z step too.

Of course, you could also use the Clipping Layer; that's a single command but the important thing is that the command doesn't tell you in plain English what you want to do -- i.e. Trim to Path.

Simple stuff, but very convenient.

And then there are the other terms used. Everything is layers. Okay, I understand that now. But how about talking about the "image". Photographers think of images, not layers.

Another one -- and we have discussed it before -- that danged "Invert Mask". I want to see "Invert Selection". The engineers' view of this is that when we use a lasso to make a selection, we are putting a mask on something. I don't care -- we photographers think we are making a selection, not masking the very thing we are selecting. Can we have "Invert Selection"? Maybe as an extra command?

It is all about ease of use by the (new) customers.

Cheers, geoff
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Herbert123
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von Herbert123 »

I think by now most photographers are quite used to the term "layers" - I hardly know anyone in photography who has not used an image editor yet, and all of them think in term of "layers", not "images". The image as a whole consists of layers - I think that is quite logical. You are correct in stating that "picture" ought to be replaced by "image" in the English version of PL. Only PL uses "picture" - no other image editor does.

I do agree with the "invert selection" oddity in PL - that still does not make sense to me at all. I see a selection (lasso) on the screen. I go to the selection submenu, and it is a bit silly that I have to choose "invert mask" to invert the currently visible selection. Very, very odd.

I also agree it would be great if PL had some option to "beautify" the actions panel, i.e. include a preview of the final effect, for example. One of the things users really enjoy about Pixelmator is the simple to use presets in that app - simple, and effective.

And the generic clipart, layer effects presets, and so on, are in dire need of an update ;-)

Perhaps we could all chime in and provide a number of good looking presets for PL.
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photoken
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von photoken »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben: ..."picture" ought to be replaced by "image" in the English version of PL. Only PL uses "picture" - no other image editor does.
Nah. It's a precise use of the words as far as I'm concerned -- a "picture" can contain raster images as well as vector objects and type. Makes sense to me. I think just a straightforward explanation of that would suffice.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:I do agree with the "invert selection" oddity in PL - that still does not make sense to me at all. I see a selection (lasso) on the screen. I go to the selection submenu, and it is a bit silly that I have to choose "invert mask" to invert the currently visible selection. Very, very odd.
That's one of the things I found hard to understand and it lead to some frustration when I was learning PL. Now that I am familiar with PL's terminology, I realize it's very logical and also makes a lot of sense. It doesn't seem silly at all (except for the truly quirky-sounding option in the Layers palette to "Create Mask from Mask" :wink: ).

PSP and PSE only use the word "Mask" to refer to a layer mask. PL is truthful in considering a selection as both a "mask" (having shades of gray) and a vector "lasso" (representing the midpoint of the black-to-white values of the "mask"). As the PL help explains, these are two sides of the same coin. If this concept is emphasized and thoroughly explained right up front, it would really aid new users.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:I also agree it would be great if PL had some option to "beautify" the actions panel, i.e. include a preview of the final effect, for example. One of the things users really enjoy about Pixelmator is the simple to use presets in that app - simple, and effective.
I wouldn't want to bloat the code by providing a preview of an action's final effect, and there are many actions that cannot be previewed because they depend on choices made during the run. There are times when the UI really shouldn't be "prettified" as is done in less capable apps.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:And the generic clipart, layer effects presets, and so on, are in dire need of an update ;-)
Yes, the clipart would benefit from some new stuff, but most of the other presets are OK.

The "Frame" effect, I think, is in "dire" need of updating. The frames really need to be very realistic if they're mimicking a realistic frame, especially the "Marble" and "Wood" frames.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:Perhaps we could all chime in and provide a number of good looking presets for PL.
Sounds like a good idea, and it could be fun.

Another area where user-supplied presets would be very beneficial is adjustments for specific camera models. Although I've already posted an adjustment preset for the RAW images from the LF1, I've since made several improvements to the preset. I'm waiting for PL19 to be released with the then-current version of dcraw so I can test and modify the preset if necessary. I already know that I'll need to supply two presets -- one for the 16-bit RAW images from the camera, and another for the floating-point DNG images created by merging exposures from the LF1 RAW images in HDRMerge....

It might be worth considering establishing a new forum here to hold such user-supplied presets so they'll be easier to find.
Ken
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Just take everything out on Highway 61.
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greenmorpher
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von greenmorpher »

Herbert123 hat geschrieben:I think by now most photographers are quite used to the term "layers" - I hardly know anyone in photography who has not used an image editor yet, and all of them think in term of "layers", not "images". The image as a whole consists of layers - I think that is quite logical. You are correct in stating that "picture" ought to be replaced by "image" in the English version of PL.…
I don't think they do. Most BEGINNING or lowish level post user thinks of his or her image -- not a layer. Do all the low level image editors use layers? I think not.

What we are after here, don't forget, is drawing in people BEFORE they make the massive investment in P'shop. Does P'shop Elements have layers? I know it did not in even a quiet recent iteration. Pixelmator boasts layers now, but into v.2 it did not, if I remember correctly. What of the image editors available on iPad et al? Do they have layers? These are the sort of people PL needs to capture as they move to more serious editing -- and they don't think in layers.
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:I do agree with the "invert selection" oddity in PL - that still does not make sense to me at all. I see a selection (lasso) on the screen. I go to the selection submenu, and it is a bit silly that I have to choose "invert mask" to invert the currently visible selection. Very, very odd.
I keep looking at the screen and seeing the area NOT selected all green -- it gives the impression to me that that is the mask. Maybe it is. Whatever, my interested is in the selection, not something called a mask.

Cheers, geoff
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Re: PhotoLine and its competitors

Beitrag von bkh »

photoken hat geschrieben:
Herbert123 hat geschrieben: ..."picture" ought to be replaced by "image" in the English version of PL. Only PL uses "picture" - no other image editor does.
Nah. It's a precise use of the words as far as I'm concerned -- a "picture" can contain raster images as well as vector objects and type. Makes sense to me. I think just a straightforward explanation of that would suffice.
I don't think that the manual distinguishes between "picture" and "image" – at least, there is no such distinction in the German manual (which just uses "Bild"), as far as I can see.

photoken hat geschrieben:
Herbert123 hat geschrieben:I do agree with the "invert selection" oddity in PL - that still does not make sense to me at all. I see a selection (lasso) on the screen. I go to the selection submenu, and it is a bit silly that I have to choose "invert mask" to invert the currently visible selection. Very, very odd.
That's one of the things I found hard to understand and it lead to some frustration when I was learning PL. Now that I am familiar with PL's terminology, I realize it's very logical and also makes a lot of sense.
I had the very same problems when starting to use PL. From a programmer's perspective, it makes perfect sense to distinguish between lasso, mask and selection, and converting a mask, the lasso, or the selection to a layer gives three totally different results. However, I'd prefer soemthing like "selection mask" (instead of just "mask") and "selection border" or "selection outline" instead of lasso, to make the relation clearer. In most of the cases, it's probably enough just to use "selection".
photoken hat geschrieben:PSP and PSE only use the word "Mask" to refer to a layer mask. PL is truthful in considering a selection as both a "mask" (having shades of gray) and a vector "lasso" (representing the midpoint of the black-to-white values of the "mask"). As the PL help explains, these are two sides of the same coin. If this concept is emphasized and thoroughly explained right up front, it would really aid new users.
So do you think that PSP and PSE are more difficult to use because they don't have three distinct concepts instead of just "selections" (or whatever it's called in PSP and PSE)?

Cheers

Burkhard.