Correction dialog displays

[MikeFromMesa]

I have been trying to work my way through the PhotoLine manual to make sure I understand how the PL controls work and what is the best way to use the software. However, as my previous posts have indicated, I am missing some things along the way. One of those things is that the change dialog boxes that are displayed when I make changes often do not display a visible image thumbnail so I have to keep the form set to show the changes on the actual image. That is not much of a problem but I assume there is something I am doing wrong if the thumbnail image in the dialog box is completely black. This particular screen shot is for the Histogram Correction layer adjustment but I get the same black thumbnail display in most (but, for some strange reason, not all) of the adjustment dialog boxes.

Can anyone point me in the correct direction?

UPDATE:
Never mind. I think I have it worked out.

[Alan9940]

Hello Mike,

Sounds like you may have it figured out, but just in case...

I don't think you said what platform you're working on, but I'm on Mac and had this same issue, except my dialog preview was all white. After some head scratching, I finally figured out that if I applied the Histogram Correction from the Tools menu I got the blank dialog preview; where if I applied the same adjustment layer from the Adjustments icon (bottom of layers panel) I got the expected preview of my image. I have no idea why the same correction layer works differently based on from where it's initiated, but that was my experience. I assume other adjustment layers would work the same, but never tried any others. Once I figured out that initiating from the layers panel did what I wanted I didn't look any further.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
AlanH

[Alan9940]

Hello Mike,

I just remembered that I did come to a theory as to why the adjustments worked differently if applied via the Tools menu vs the layers panel. If applied from the Tools menu, the tool is expecting a pixel-based layer because it can then be implemented as an adjustment layer by clicking the icon within the dialog itself. If applied via the icon at the bottom of the layers panel, it knows right away that this is intended to be an adjustment layer. A subtle difference, but nonetheless... Of course, this could all be hogwash, too.

Best regards,
AlanH

[MikeFromMesa]

I don't think you said what platform you're working on, but I'm on Mac and had this same issue, except my dialog preview was all white. After some head scratching, I finally figured out that if I applied the Histogram Correction from the Tools menu I got the blank dialog preview; where if I applied the same adjustment layer from the Adjustments icon (bottom of layers panel) I got the expected preview of my image. I have no idea why the same correction layer works differently based on from where it's initiated, but that was my experience. I assume other adjustment layers would work the same, but never tried any others. Once I figured out that initiating from the layers panel did what I wanted I didn't look any further.

Alan,

Here is what I have figured out. This is only what I observe and it does not explain why this is true, only that it seems to follow these rules.

If I open a raw image I automatically get two layers, one marked image and one marked background. I don't (yet) know what these layers actually are or what they represent, but what I have found out by trial and error is that if I select the image layer and open the Tools -> Histogram dialog box I get a white thumbnail. If I select the background layer and open the Tools -> Histogram dialog box I get a black thumbnail. The only way I have figured out to get a valid thumbnail using the Tools -> Histogram dialog box is to flatten the image before calling the tool.

If I do the same with the layers Histogram dialog box I get a valid thumbnail only if I make sure the image layer is selected. If I select the background layer I get a black thumbnail. And, if I choose to flatten the image I get a valid thumbnail, as above with the Tools command.

Anyway that is why I posted that I (sort of) figured it out. I probably need to read through the manual again to see if I can find out what data, exactly, is in each layer. I have been slowly figuring out how to use PL and, as of right now, the biggest puzzle I have is trying to figure out how to properly use the select tools. I have been looking for something like the Photoshop Quick Select tool which acts to automatically align itself to the border of the selected area when it seems to be clearly defined. Have not figured out how to do that with PL. Similarly I have not figured out (yet) how to select colors as with the Photoshop Magic Wand.

The manual is fairly long and some of it is not clear to me, probably because I don't really understand the basics of what is going on (as compared to being able to actually do what I want).

Thanks for your post.

[photoken]

If I open a raw image I automatically get two layers, one marked image and one marked background. I don't (yet) know what these layers actually are or what they represent,

The layer labeled "background" is the RAW image that's been de-mosaiced without any adjustments applied to the resulting image.
The layer labeled "image" is a space-saving "container" for several adjustment layers, some of which use pre-established values. If you select the "image" layer and show the Adjustment Layer panel (View...Panels...Adjustment Layer), you'll see those adjustment layers. You can modify the values, add your own adjustment layers to the "container", and when you get a result that's good for your image(s) you can save that as a preset to instantly apply the adjustments to subsequent images.

as of right now, the biggest puzzle I have is trying to figure out how to properly use the select tools. I have been looking for something like the Photoshop Quick Select tool which acts to automatically align itself to the border of the selected area when it seems to be clearly defined.

The Quick Selection tool does that, but (as with all such quick selection tools) it can be thrown off by diffuse edges and colours around the object you consider to be important. Zoom in to >400% to see what I mean. For the Quick Selection tool, the operative word is "quick". If going back and forth a couple of times between the "foreground" and "background" definers doesn't yield a good enough result, I cut my losses and switch to a more precise selection method.

Similarly I have not figured out (yet) how to select colors as with the Photoshop Magic Wand.

The AutoMask tool does that. Adjust the Tolerance values, etc., before selecting. A couple of things to remember:

• After changing the Tolerance, etc., click again to replace the selection with the new one.
• Holding down the Shift key when selecting will add to the current selection.
• Holding down the Ctrl key will subtract from the current selection.

There's also the Tool...Color...Select Colors menu item which will allow you to select by as many colours as you want to specify.

[photoken]

If I open a raw image I automatically get two layers, one marked image and one marked background. I don't (yet) know what these layers actually are or what they represent, but what I have found out by trial and error is that if I select the image layer and open the Tools -> Histogram dialog box I get a white thumbnail. If I select the background layer and open the Tools -> Histogram dialog box I get a black thumbnail.

Because (when working with a RAW image) that "image" layer is a "container" layer for the adjustment layers and does not have any image pixels, so the thumbnail will be white. The "background" layer does have image pixels, but likely is waaaaay too dark and therefore the thumbnail will be black (or nearly so).

The only way I have figured out to get a valid thumbnail using the Tools -> Histogram dialog box is to flatten the image before calling the tool.

For RAW images, you can either:

1. Use the "image" layer and change its existing Histogram adjustment layer or add one of your own.
2. Add a Histogram adjustment layer to the top of the layer stack (in other words, de-select the "link" icon which creates the layer as a child layer) and make your adjustment.

[Alan9940]

Hello Mike,

It sounds like you're figuring some things out. That's good!

I've played around with opening RAW files in PL just enough to know that Ken has provided a very good synopsis of how it all works. I typically convert my RAW files to TIFF in other software, but wanted to understand enough about RAW in PL enabling me to knock something out quick, if needed. I commend you for trying to understand the information presented in Help. Personally, I find it lacking and not especially helpful. Honestly, I've gotten more useful guidance by the helpful folks on these boards. IMO, PL is a very powerful program that's at the same time a very difficult piece of software to master. I'm a long way from mastery...

As for the selection tools, again, Ken has provided some useful information to consider. Personally, I find these tools within PL to be rather rudimentary and I'm starting to use Topaz Remask 4 within PL for all my masking needs. Remask, for the most part, will give me a really good start that I can then fine tune in PL, if needed. I would like to see something like PS Refine Edge in PL, but who knows if and/or when that will happen.

Best regards,
AlanH

[photoken]

I typically convert my RAW files to TIFF in other software, but wanted to understand enough about RAW in PL enabling me to knock something out quick, if needed.

That's pretty much the same approach that I use. I'm in somewhat of a unique situation because my camera is the Panasonic LF1. Although its sensor is large for a compact camera, it's still a small sensor so I need processing software to be very good to get the best out of its RAW images. Fortunately, RawTherapee does an outstanding job (and it's free ). I did extensive comparisons between RT and PL, and the images from PL are only very slightly less sharp than the images from RT.

So, I know that I can get very good results out of PL for something quick, or if the final image is going to be a reduced size JPG, e.g. Also, if I know that I'll need to do some masking I might process the image first in PL, use its masking and adjustments on the selected area (the sky, for example), and save it out as a 16-bit TIF for further processing in RT. It all depends on what the final image will be used for....

[MikeFromMesa]

The layer labeled "background" is the RAW image that's been de-mosaiced without any adjustments applied to the resulting image.
The layer labeled "image" is a space-saving "container" for several adjustment layers, some of which use pre-established values. If you select the "image" layer and show the Adjustment Layer panel (View...Panels...Adjustment Layer), you'll see those adjustment layers. You can modify the values, add your own adjustment layers to the "container", and when you get a result that's good for your image(s) you can save that as a preset to instantly apply the adjustments to subsequent images.

Ah. That explains quite a few things. Now I understand why selecting the image layer leads to disastrous results when I call an adjustment plugin like Topaz Adjust.

While it is taking me a while to get through some of these tools it is also becoming clear that this is not a simple photo editor but is rather a very sophisticated editing tool more on a par with Photoshop than some of the other lower level tools. There is a lot here that does not immediately meet the eye.

[Alan9940]

Hello Mike,

Ah. That explains quite a few things. Now I understand why selecting the image layer leads to disastrous results when I call an adjustment plugin like Topaz Adjust.

Don't know if you've discovered this, yet, but one of the default actions supplied with PL is to create a merged layer (stamped layer in PS language.) Just the ticket needed before heading into Topaz plugins.

While it is taking me a while to get through some of these tools it is also becoming clear that this is not a simple photo editor but is rather a very sophisticated editing tool more on a par with Photoshop than some of the other lower level tools. There is a lot here that does not immediately meet the eye.

Totally agree! After using PS for 14 years and not wanting to rent software when Adobe moved to that model, I'm finding PL will allow me to do everything I've always done in PS. But, one of the tricks is learning the "PL language" and terminology. If PL would implement something like PS's Refine Edge for masking I'd be in love!!

Best regards,
AlanH

[Hoogo]

...If PL would implement something like PS's Refine Edge for masking I'd be in love!!

All the lasso tools have a button in their tool settings called "enhance edge". Maybe that one comes close enough?

[MikeFromMesa]

Don't know if you've discovered this, yet, but one of the default actions supplied with PL is to create a merged layer (stamped layer in PS language.) Just the ticket needed before heading into Topaz plugins.

Hello Alan,

I did not know that and will have to look into it, but I had found that I could do amazing things with the external editor settings. For example

I could set up Topaz's Fusion Express 2 as an external editor and set it to both flatten the image and pass a 16 bit tiff. Then I could use any of my Topaz plugins through the external editor settings and the image was returned back to PL as the active image. That is, it works just like a plugin although it is an external editor.

I could set up PhotoNinja as an external editor and, by saving the file with the same name, it would act like a plugin and return the edited image as the active image.

I could set up Perfect Photo Suite 8 the same way, use the entire suite's functionality (I really only use the masking functionality, but I did try the rest to see if it would work) and use that as my masking editor. It would return the masked image as the new active image.

The more I play with PL the more surprised and pleased I am with how flexible it is. There is some functionality I don't much care for (for example, the selection options) but that could just be because I have not learned how to use them properly yet. I will also want to look into the possibility of using some of the Photoshop Automation apps to see if I can use them in PL. In particular I would like to see if I can get the Photomatix plugin to work in PL.

Love playing around with photo editing software so I am currently having a good time ...

[photoken]

I had found that I could do amazing things with the external editor settings.

Yep. It gets even more amazing -- I can send a vector layer to Illustrator (or CorelDraw, or Inkscape) as a PDF and use those powerful vector tools for modifications, returning it to PL as the vector layer modified. Good stuff!

[Alan9940]

All the lasso tools have a button in their tool settings called "enhance edge". Maybe that one comes close enough?

Hello Hoogo,

To be honest, I haven't figured out what Enhance Edge does for me, but I doubt that a single button click could provide all the control that Photoshop's Refine Edge dialog provides when refining a mask. If PL's Enhance Edge is some sort of intelligent edge detection algorithm, then that functionality would be similar to Smart Radius in Refine Edge. However, Smart Radius gives me...well...a radius slider to adjust the edge detection. Then, along with that I have access to a brush (I call it the "make better" brush) within this dialog that allows me to expand the area whereby the intelligent edge algorithm considers. This is really helpful when working on things like hair and fur.

Then, I have several sliders such as smooth, feather, contract, and shift edge that enables me to adjust the mask edge. I have found no similar edge control within PL when building masks. All that said, it might be useful to me to know exactly what Enhance Edge is doing for me. I've searched this term in Help and find nothing about it.

Best regards,
AlanH

[photoken]

All that said, it might be useful to me to know exactly what Enhance Edge is doing for me. I've searched this term in Help and find nothing about it.

The explanation is found in the Help under "Free Lasso":

6. The Tools in the Toolbox / 6.3 Tools for Image Layers

6.3.4 Free Lasso, Rectangle Lasso, Circle Lasso, Horizontal Lasso Line, Vertical Lasso Column
...
Enhance Mask Edge

The Tool Settings offer a way for enhancing the edge of a mask. In order to do so PhotoLine is examining the image content at the edge of the mask and is creating intermediate mask values depending on its similarity to the content of the selection. Width controls the width of the area, that is examined, and pressing Enhance Edge executes the function.

Basically, it's creating a smooth transition between the areas inside the mask and the areas outside the mask. In other words, it's blurring the edges of the mask.

Here's a screenshot at 300% of the mask created by the AutoMask tool without enhancing the edge. The subject was a blonde's hair against a light yellow background.

automask orig.jpg

Here's a screenshot at 300% of the mask after using Enhance Edge with a setting of 2px:

automask enh edge.jpg

Although the other controls you mentioned about PS's Refine Edge (such as Expand, Feather, etc.) can be applied in PL using the controls under the Mask menu and a Blur filter, PL's Enhance Edge does not recalculate the selection. I think that only PL's Border Matting tool will do that, but I'll need to do some more experimenting with it.