Exp: Selections and Masks

[Alan9940]

Hello Mike,

Actually, IMO you're approaching it incorrectly...what you may want to do (it's what I did) is select the sky (because that's pretty much a uniform blue color), and then invert the mask. Here's what I did:

1. Using Automask with a tolerance of 26% (I think that's what I used...on my Windows machine at the moment and I use PL on my Mac), I started in the lighter blue sky area near the top of the left-hand wall and dragged the radius until most of the blue around the vegetation was selected.

2. Holding Shift down, I repeated the process in the darker blue of the upper sky area on the left dragging the radius out until the added selection area slightly overlapped the prior selection.

3. Select Layer-->Layer Mask-->Create from Mask. With the mask layer active in the layers panel, hit Optioni/Alt I (to invert the mask.)

4. Add a new layer of something like clouds and drag below the layer you just masked. I made a small selection of clouds from one of my images using the rectangle lasso, copied it to the clipboard, then pasted as layer into your document.

5. On the masked layer, use the standard brush--hard edged around the mission building itself and soft-edged around the vegetation--to modify the mask, as needed.

As I said before, if I/we can nail down use of the Border Matting tool, masking around the trees/plants would be even cleaner. Ideally, what I'd really like to see in PL is a Refine Edge brush (like in PS) along with a chisel brush (like in OnOne masking). Those two tools combined with Automask would IMO be a killer combo!!

Oh, and another thought that I didn't try...after building your selection you may want to experiment with Enhance Edge. I thought of it later, but that may help clean up the masking around the mission without having to brush anything.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
AlanH

[Alan9940]

Alan and Mike,
Hey guys, the mission photo and learning the PL selection tools by working on it is very valuable, but would be more appropriate in its own thread....

Just a thought.

Hey Ken,

Certainly didn't mean to highjack this thread...I thought your intention with this thread was to learn about selections and masking in PL? This image doesn't qualify?

Best regards,
AlanH

[photoken]

I thought your intention with this thread was to learn about selections and masking in PL? This image doesn't qualify?

It sure does qualify, but I think it's easier for folks to follow along if each problem image has its own thread.

[photoken]

What I had tried to do was to select the front terra cotta facia, but not the wall and not the white stucco, so I could enhance its color.

Mike,
Depending on what you mean when you say you want to enhance the colour of the terra cotta, you can not even bother with making a selection and instead use a little known but very powerful tool -- Tool...Color...Hue Editor.

In its dialog window,

1. Click on the Saturation box to make it the active one.
2. Choose the little eyedropper icon and click on a medium toned terra cotta point (either in the main editing window or in the dialog's thumbnail). This will set a curve point on the line running across the "rainbow" that corresponds to the colour you clicked on.
3. Drag that new curve point upward to increase the saturation for that colour and its close colours.

I used these settings:

Mission HE settings.jpg

To get this result:

Mission colour result.jpg

[photoken]

Mike,
If you want to conceal the sky to reveal a more interesting sky you added as another layer, Alan's instructions were a good approach.

I used a slightly different method:

1. Use the AutoMask with an initial Tolerance value of "20", and "Fill Holes", "Contiguous" and "Straighten" all de-selected.
2. Clicked and held in the left sky area about halfway between the top of the sky and the bottom of the sky.
3. Keeping the Left Mouse Button pressed, I dragged out the "Tolerance circle" until all areas of the sky were selected.
4. Inverted the mask (Tools...Mask...Invert).
5. Switched to the Border Matting tool, and did nothing but hit the "Extract Selection" button, using these settings:
   extract settings.jpg

That setting to "Remove Color Border" did all the work of removing the bits of sky left around the edges of the trees, etc.

The extracted Mission was now on its own layer with a transparent sky area, revealing a little known phenomenon that occurs in the Southwest....

Mission sky result 02.jpg

[MikeFromMesa]

Alan and Mike,
Hey guys, the mission photo and learning the PL selection tools by working on it is very valuable, but would be more appropriate in its own thread....

Just a thought.

Fair enough.

I thought that talking about selections and masks would be appropriate to the Selections and Masks example but perhaps your example/tutorial thread is not the proper place for a discussion about working with sample photos. I did not mean to hijack your thread and will start another thread. Sorry.

[Alan9940]

@Ken,

Nice technique! I will definitely have to try your approach on some of my images. Also, I knew that PL must have a way of dealing with color contamination along edges and there it is right in the Border Matting tool! But, still... Based on what I can see in the small full image attachment, the dead tree and vegetation just above the arch on the left look pretty funky; for the tree, it looks like most of the branches got lost in the extraction. If you look around the palm trees on the right, along the top of the wall, you can still see blue fringing from the old sky. This issue is where OnOne's chisel tool would be perfect!

@Mike

Regarding hijacking of this thread... No problem...really. But, I do think Ken made a good and very valid point. It probably would be most helpful for all involved to have a single image per thread. That way, anyone reading and participating in the thread doesn't have to concern themselves with which image is being referenced. Otherwise, we may have to annotate each response stating which image is being discussed. Could get confusing really fast!

Best regards,
AlanH

[MikeFromMesa]

@Mike

Regarding hijacking of this thread... No problem...really. But, I do think Ken made a good and very valid point. It probably would be most helpful for all involved to have a single image per thread. That way, anyone reading and participating in the thread doesn't have to concern themselves with which image is being referenced. Otherwise, we may have to annotate each response stating which image is being discussed. Could get confusing really fast!

Best regards,
AlanH

I agree and started a new thread.

[MikeFromMesa]

Depending on what you mean when you say you want to enhance the colour of the terra cotta, you can not even bother with making a selection and instead use a little known but very powerful tool -- Tool...Color...Hue Editor.

Just to mention, I had not played around with the Hue Editor (so much to play with in PL, so little time ...) and did so after seeing your post. Quite an interesting tool. Thanks for mentioning it.

[photoken]

Also, I knew that PL must have a way of dealing with color contamination along edges and there it is right in the Border Matting tool! But, still... Based on what I can see in the small full image attachment, the dead tree and vegetation just above the arch on the left look pretty funky; for the tree, it looks like most of the branches got lost in the extraction. If you look around the palm trees on the right, along the top of the wall, you can still see blue fringing from the old sky. This issue is where OnOne's chisel tool would be perfect!

Hey Alan,
Yeah, I've been really wanting a good "edge decontamination" tool for extracted images. Time will tell if the BM's "Remove Color Edge" is powerful enough. Might want to consider asking for an option to somehow tell it how aggressive to be. On a separate note, when working with RAW images, there's a real need to have a "Color Fringe Removal" tool. I've already filed a Feature Request for that:
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... nge#p30852

I saw that funkiness around the edges of the Mission photo, too, but when I zoomed in and examined the image that was attached to Mike's post I saw that the original edges were very diffuse. I think it's because this forum's image size limitations forces the attachments to not be of the best quality.

Out of curiosity, does the PL Contract Mask function in any way do the same thing as that "chisel" tool?

Back to Jennifer -- For me, the Experiment is taking a slight turn to wrestling with the Border Matting tool on her hair. I didn't have much time yesterday to work on it. I'm still trying to understand exactly what to do with the keep, drop, and recalc areas and how the tool's Object, Background and Working Area tools relate to what has automatically been defined. Right now, I'm thinking that it seems that once a selection has been made (with the AutoMask tool, for example), switching to the BM tool automatically creates a BM "object". What I'm running in to is that using the Working Area tool on that automatically created object is giving inconsistent results -- sometimes I get a nicely recalculated extraction, but sometimes I get a really ugly "black hole" kind of donut area.

[MikeFromMesa]

I saw that funkiness around the edges of the Mission photo, too, but when I zoomed in and examined the image that was attached to Mike's post I saw that the original edges were very diffuse. I think it's because this forum's image size limitations forces the attachments to not be of the best quality.

The original image was 24MP from a Canon 5D3 (5760 x 3840) but I had to reduce it to about 580 x 880 and then save it at a very low quality because of the upload size requirements (maximum of 128KB from a 29MB raw image). And, for those images where I did the cropping, the problem with the resize was even worse.

[Alan9940]

Out of curiosity, does the PL Contract Mask function in any way do the same thing as that "chisel" tool?

Well...kinda the same only different! PL Expand/Contract Mask will grow/shrink the entire mask by whatever number of pixels I specify. That's certainly useful, but it has to be done while a selection is active. The chisel tool in OnOne's products allows me to "hack away" (for lack of better term) any mask edge after the initial mask is built. I can whittle away at the edge about 1 pixel at a time until it's as close to perfect as one might obtain.

Back to Jennifer -- For me, the Experiment is taking a slight turn to wrestling with the Border Matting tool on her hair. I didn't have much time yesterday to work on it. I'm still trying to understand exactly what to do with the keep, drop, and recalc areas and how the tool's Object, Background and Working Area tools relate to what has automatically been defined. Right now, I'm thinking that it seems that once a selection has been made (with the AutoMask tool, for example), switching to the BM tool automatically creates a BM "object". What I'm running in to is that using the Working Area tool on that automatically created object is giving inconsistent results -- sometimes I get a nicely recalculated extraction, but sometimes I get a really ugly "black hole" kind of donut area.

I have nearly given up on the BM tool. It just doesn't work the way I expect it to which is probably more lack of my understanding of how to use it vs that it simply doesn't work! I'm really hoping you, Hoogo, or someone who really understands how this tool works will explain it to the rest of us. A tutorial on this tool would be absolutely fantastic and IMO much needed!

As others have voiced on these boards (hoping the brothers or others capable of influencing the future of PL are reading) the thing that makes PL difficult to learn and IMO why it's not more prevalent in the marketplace is greatly due to the fact that there is no training/tutorials available. IMO the accepted "standard" for digital manipulation has got to be Photoshop...PL can do a lot of similar things, but it's difficult to find because you don't know what esoteric name might be used in PL for the same functionality. Take the Border Matting tool, for example; somewhat similar to PS Refine Edge...somewhat similar to masking tools I've used in other programs...seems extremely powerful, but I can't figure out how to use it! I've read the Help file, I've read your comments on this tool, but I'm failing miserably with it. And, what does the name mean, anyway? Is BM some loose English translation for masking in German? Not complaining here...simply voicing my own frustrations with what appears to be a very useful and powerful program!

Best regards,
AlanH

[photoken]

Out of curiosity, does the PL Contract Mask function in any way do the same thing as that "chisel" tool?

Well...kinda the same only different! PL Expand/Contract Mask will grow/shrink the entire mask by whatever number of pixels I specify. That's certainly useful, but it has to be done while a selection is active. The chisel tool in OnOne's products allows me to "hack away" (for lack of better term) any mask edge after the initial mask is built. I can whittle away at the edge about 1 pixel at a time until it's as close to perfect as one might obtain.

Interesting. So, in other words, when I'm working on my notebook without a mouse and only using its touchpad, that would make it easier to move in areas of the mask edges without struggling to paint a line along the edge?

As others have voiced on these boards (hoping the brothers or others capable of influencing the future of PL are reading) the thing that makes PL difficult to learn and IMO why it's not more prevalent in the marketplace is greatly due to the fact that there is no training/tutorials available. IMO the accepted "standard" for digital manipulation has got to be Photoshop...PL can do a lot of similar things, but it's difficult to find because you don't know what esoteric name might be used in PL for the same functionality. Take the Border Matting tool, for example; somewhat similar to PS Refine Edge...somewhat similar to masking tools I've used in other programs...seems extremely powerful, but I can't figure out how to use it! I've read the Help file, I've read your comments on this tool, but I'm failing miserably with it. And, what does the name mean, anyway? Is BM some loose English translation for masking in German? Not complaining here...simply voicing my own frustrations with what appears to be a very useful and powerful program!

I agree with all you've said.

I'll say this though -- even when I have disagreed with certain terms ("False Color" instead of the more common "Gradient Mapping"), I have to admit that the English names do precisely describe the function/feature. If the PL names aren't the same as the PS names, I've stopped worrying about it and just roll with the changes; but you make a good point -- perhaps a PS-to-PL "translation" section in the Help would be good.

Getting back to the Border Matting tool.... I took a little break from wrestling with it to clear my head. Now, I can see that the name is very precise. We've been using it to modify selections and ultimately create a mask, so it's natural to think of it as some sort of selection tool or masking tool, but it's not. What it does is define how the edges of an extracted object will be handled. It will define the areas of transparent pixels at the edges and remove colour contamination at the edges, but only on the extracted object. How the object is truly defined is left to the "real" selection tools such as the AutoMask.

Now, when I've got some time much later tonight, I'm going to test a new theory that my struggles with defining the edge handling in the tool might be due to something stupidly obvious -- how hard or soft the brush is that I'm using for the keep, drop and recalc tools. It kinda seems like I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel, but I've been fooled before....

[Alan9940]

Interesting. So, in other words, when I'm working on my notebook without a mouse and only using its touchpad, that would make it easier to move in areas of the mask edges without struggling to paint a line along the edge?

Yes, exactly! Select the chisel tool, I usually make the brush rather small, but don't know that it's really necessary, and then you simply drag along the edge. You really can't mess it up! Additionally, there is a standard masking brush with a little secret that makes it a masking brush on steroids; select the standard masking brush, turn on Perfect Brush, and whatever color/luminance value is under the center crosshairs of the brush is what's masked away. Basically, it's smart edge detection. For example, in Mike's mission picture I could drag this smart brush along the top edge of the walls and remove the blue of the sky without touching the tan/brown of the wall. And, to make it even more useful if I hold down Option/Alt with edge detection turned on, the brush will sample the color under the crosshairs once, and then paint the mask; works beautifully for masking out sky through tree limbs and leaves! Does it work all the time? Of course not...nothing does!

I'll say this though -- even when I have disagreed with certain terms ("False Color" instead of the more common "Gradient Mapping"), I have to admit that the English names do precisely describe the function/feature. If the PL names aren't the same as the PS names, I've stopped worrying about it and just roll with the changes; but you make a good point -- perhaps a PS-to-PL "translation" section in the Help would be good.

Getting back to the Border Matting tool.... I took a little break from wrestling with it to clear my head. Now, I can see that the name is very precise. We've been using it to modify selections and ultimately create a mask, so it's natural to think of it as some sort of selection tool or masking tool, but it's not. What it does is define how the edges of an extracted object will be handled. It will define the areas of transparent pixels at the edges and remove colour contamination at the edges, but only on the extracted object. How the object is truly defined is left to the "real" selection tools such as the AutoMask.

Yep, I, too, have no issue with "rolling with the changes." The problem I'm having is not even being able to guess that (to use your example) False Color is really Gradient Mapping. The term False Color, as used within another image editor I own, is something totally different from gradient mapping...just sayin'. I know what I want to do...I'm pretty sure PL can do it...but, find help in the manual? How can I find something if I don't have a clue what to call it?

So, what you're saying regarding the BM tool somewhat conflicts with the description in the manual. Or, probably more the case, the manual is stating its use correctly, but the way it's written reads as something else. My impression from reading the manual is that an initial selection with, for example, Automask has already been done, and then the Border Matting tool is used. If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, some sort of selection tool has already extracted the object and the BM tool is used to define the edge between the object extracted and transparency? Why does the BM tool have an extract button? Does the BM tool allow extraction by marking keep/compute/cut image areas? When I'm a little more rested, I'll have to dig into this tool a bit more, too.

Best regards,
AlanH

[Hoogo]

You could enable "edit mask", one of the batman buttons in the toolbox.
And then there's the filter brush (N), set it to "minimum", size 1.