Exp: Selections and Masks

[Herbert123]

In regards to some of the used English terminology in Photoline: the first time I opened Photoline I had the hardest time finding "Levels", coming from a Photoshop background. I looked everywhere, and after 10 minutes of scratching my head, I noticed "Histogram Correction".

Now, while technically correct, every other image editor I had worked in before (including video editing software and 3d software) uses the term "Levels" - this can definitely be somewhat off-putting when making the jump to Photoline.

As for expanding and contracting layer masks, a simple option is to add a minimum (contract) or maximum (expand) adjustment layer to a layer mask. Perhaps an additional soften adjustment to soften up the edges a bit as well. Can be quite useful under circumstances.

This is one thing I loved coming from Photoshop: in Photoshop layer masks cannot be affected directly by adjustment layers. No such hindrances in Photoline ;-P

[photoken]

Additionally, there is a standard masking brush with a little secret that makes it a masking brush on steroids; select the standard masking brush, turn on Perfect Brush, and whatever color/luminance value is under the center crosshairs of the brush is what's masked away. Basically, it's smart edge detection.

I like that "Perfect Brush" idea a lot. A long time ago, I filed a Feature Request here to have an option for the Background Eraser tool to constantly sample the pixel under the very center of its crosshairs while painting with that eraser. One of the other image editors I used had that feature and it made it a breeze to paint along the edges of an object to erase the background, even when the background constantly changed from one colour to another.

How can I find something if I don't have a clue what to call it?

Hah! You've never worked as an Oracle DBA! Oracle is a huge, extremely complex database system and its documentation is insanely comprehensive -- the documentation occupies an entire CD. There was only one, itty, bitty problem -- if you didn't already know the answer to your question, you could never find the answer.

So, what you're saying regarding the BM tool somewhat conflicts with the description in the manual. Or, probably more the case, the manual is stating its use correctly, but the way it's written reads as something else. My impression from reading the manual is that an initial selection with, for example, Automask has already been done, and then the Border Matting tool is used. If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, some sort of selection tool has already extracted the object and the BM tool is used to define the edge between the object extracted and transparency? Why does the BM tool have an extract button? Does the BM tool allow extraction by marking keep/compute/cut image areas? When I'm a little more rested, I'll have to dig into this tool a bit more, too.

No, you've got the right impression from the Help explanation, but not exactly the meaning of what I said. Another selection tool has only made the selection and it's the BM tool that does the actual extraction. The tools in the BM will define the edge between the proposed extracted object and the transparency, as you said. So, the BM tool has the extract button because nothing has been extracted yet -- the extraction only happens when that button is hit. In other words, what you're seeing when you choose the BM tool is what another selection tool has defined as being in or out, and how the BM tool proposes to perform the extraction.

[Alan9940]

As for expanding and contracting layer masks, a simple option is to add a minimum (contract) or maximum (expand) adjustment layer to a layer mask. Perhaps an additional soften adjustment to soften up the edges a bit as well. Can be quite useful under circumstances.

I love the idea of this, but how do you get a contract or expand adjustment layer of a mask? I seem to have access to Tool>Mask>Expand Mask or Contract Mask only when a selection is active. Once I've created the mask, these options are grayed out.

Best regards,
AlanH

[Alan9940]

Hah! You've never worked as an Oracle DBA! Oracle is a huge, extremely complex database system and its documentation is insanely comprehensive -- the documentation occupies an entire CD. There was only one, itty, bitty problem -- if you didn't already know the answer to your question, you could never find the answer.

Haha...nope, that's probably about the only job I never did during my 38 years in the computer industry. But, it does remind me of one evening when I was installing FrameMaker on one of our RISC systems for the president of the company and, when I was done, I came into his office and dropped about a 2 foot high kinda heavy stack of manuals on his desk. I told him I was totally uninterested in any software that wasn't more intuitive that that!!

No, you've got the right impression from the Help explanation, but not exactly the meaning of what I said. Another selection tool has only made the selection and it's the BM tool that does the actual extraction. The tools in the BM will define the edge between the proposed extracted object and the transparency, as you said. So, the BM tool has the extract button because nothing has been extracted yet -- the extraction only happens when that button is hit. In other words, what you're seeing when you choose the BM tool is what another selection tool has defined as being in or out, and how the BM tool proposes to perform the extraction.

Ah, now I think I get it...sort of. Thanks for the clarification.

Best regards,
AlanH

[Herbert123]

As for expanding and contracting layer masks, a simple option is to add a minimum (contract) or maximum (expand) adjustment layer to a layer mask. Perhaps an additional soften adjustment to soften up the edges a bit as well. Can be quite useful under circumstances.

I love the idea of this, but how do you get a contract or expand adjustment layer of a mask? I seem to have access to Tool>Mask>Expand Mask or Contract Mask only when a selection is active. Once I've created the mask, these options are grayed out.

Best regards,
AlanH

After adding an adjustment layer or layer mask (or group of masks), you add the minimum and/or maximum adjustment layer in the layer stack as children layer(s) of those. Like so:

Untitled.png

As you can tell from the screenshot, it also works with vector masks. In the above example I added both, but do not forget to either one off or remove one.

[photoken]

As for expanding and contracting layer masks, a simple option is to add a minimum (contract) or maximum (expand) adjustment layer to a layer mask. Perhaps an additional soften adjustment to soften up the edges a bit as well. Can be quite useful under circumstances.

Wow! That's pretty cool. Thanks! Now I finally have something to do with those Minimum and Maximum filter things....

[Herbert123]

As for expanding and contracting layer masks, a simple option is to add a minimum (contract) or maximum (expand) adjustment layer to a layer mask. Perhaps an additional soften adjustment to soften up the edges a bit as well. Can be quite useful under circumstances.

Wow! That's pretty cool. Thanks! Now I finally have something to do with those Minimum and Maximum filter things....

Try adding multiple instances of maximum to a layer mask with varying degrees of intensity and sizes for a very interesting sixties/seventies "pop" effect...

Untitled.jpg

In this example the original image has a white background that is gradually revealed in layers through multiple maximum adjustment layers that affect the edge of the layer mask. Fun!

[Confirmatio]

Good. Very interesting! The picture is very beautiful.



ipad mini 3 tasche

[Alan9940]

@Herbert123

Thank you for the tip! I seem to always forget that the same adjustments applied via the Tools menu can be different from those applied via the layer adjustment menu. I tried it and I already know that these two adjustment layers will prove useful in dealing with mask edges.

Best regards,
AlanH

[Hoogo]

...that the same adjustments applied via the Tools menu can be different from those applied via the layer adjustment menu...

What? Could you give an example, please?

[Alan9940]

What? Could you give an example, please?

Hello Hoogo,

Perhaps the word "different" was a poor choice...

Let's consider the Expand/Contract Mask via Tools>Mask vs the Minimum/Maximum adjustment layer option via the Adjustment layers icon on the bottom of the layers panel. Basically, both Expand/Contract and Min/Max do the same things...only differently. Expand/Contract works while a selection is active whereas Min/Max as a child to a mask layer works after the mask is created. Same basic outcome, but personally I like to see exactly what's going on with my image so I prefer the adjustment layer approach. Am I stating this incorrectly or not understanding how these tools work?

Best regards,
AlanH

[Alan9940]

Hey Ken,

Discovered a new tool today that may be helpful with masking needs--Auto Eraser. Have you ever played around with this tool? It samples the color under the center crosshairs and erases that color only. Tolerance can be set which controls how much variant is allowed from the original sampled color. It's a destructive tool, but here's my thought... Create a duplicate image layer, use the Auto Eraser to remove image areas as if you're building a mask, when you're satisfied that you've got your "mask" Ctrl/Click the layer thumbnail creating a selection, create a mask, save the mask, delete the working layer, and then use the mask where needed.

I tried this technique on the Aniston image, but no matter how I set the tolerance level the background-->hair color, tire/wheel well-->dress/purse strap, etc, is just too close to effectively mask out with this tool. But, I tried it on a couple of other images of mine and I'm thinking it might prove useful as another quiver in the overall masking tool set.

Best regards,
AlanH

[photoken]

Discovered a new tool today that may be helpful with masking needs--Auto Eraser. Have you ever played around with this tool? It samples the color under the center crosshairs and erases that color only. Tolerance can be set which controls how much variant is allowed from the original sampled color. It's a destructive tool, but here's my thought... Create a duplicate image layer, use the Auto Eraser to remove image areas as if you're building a mask, when you're satisfied that you've got your "mask" Ctrl/Click the layer thumbnail creating a selection, create a mask, save the mask, delete the working layer, and then use the mask where needed.

I tried this technique on the Aniston image, but no matter how I set the tolerance level the background-->hair color, tire/wheel well-->dress/purse strap, etc, is just too close to effectively mask out with this tool. But, I tried it on a couple of other images of mine and I'm thinking it might prove useful as another quiver in the overall masking tool set.

Yes. I wrote the wrong tool name earlier when I commented on your "Perfect Brush" -- it was the Auto Eraser tool for which I asked for the option to have the colours constantly sampled. My bad....

You're absolutely right that it's another tool we have for getting a good mask, as you described. When I originally did my thing with the Jen image, that was one of the tools I used on her hair -- I was trying everything I could think of to get rid of the orange "halos" around the empty areas between the strands of her hair near her face.

[Alan9940]

Hello Ken,

OK, glad you were already aware of the Auto Eraser. Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that having the option to continuously resample the color under the crosshairs or sample once would be a great addition to this tool!

Best regards,
AlanH

[photoken]

Just an update on using the BM tool. (I've had to be away from the computer, except very briefly, the last few days.) Here are some things I'm discovering.

It turns out that the BM tool will not automatically have any transition areas when it extracts unless the original selection has a "soft edge".

Try this to see what I mean: Use the AutoMask tool with a Soft Edge setting of "0" to select some strands of her hair. Switch to the BM tool, zoom in, and you'll see that there are no areas being defined as "transitions" and if you extract her hair you'll get hard edges. Even if you use the BM's Working Area tool, you won't get soft edges in the extracted image. Then "Revert to Saved" to clear everything and use the AM tool again, this time with a Soft Edge setting of "1". Switch to the BM tool, zoom in, and you'll see that the edges are automatically marked as "transitional" and if you extract her hair you'll get soft, semi-transparent edges.

The worst thing you can do with the BM tool is to mark strands of hair as "in" using a brush that's larger than the strand of hair and then go over that strand of hair with the Working Area brush, thinking it will automatically detect what should be in and what should be out. It doesn't, and ugliness results. However, if a strand of hair has not been initially selected at all, painting over it with the Working Area brush will work OK.

If you use any of the BM tools, you have to hit "Apply" before extracting; otherwise your changes won't show up. (Well...duhhh, Ken. )

So, my next test will be to use the AM tool with a Soft Edge setting of "1" to select her hair, (then possibly apply its "Enhance Edge" with a width of "1"), then use the BM tool to first refine some of the "in" and "out" areas, as well as refining the edges that I want recalculated before extracting the image. We'll see how that goes....