Brush is lagging behind the mouse

[jw2004]

When use the brush tool( and other tools), the brush position is lagging behind the mouse point position very far, this serious affect my operation.

In PS, the brush position nearly synchronize with mouse point position.

2015-05-16_21h12_46.png

[ellhel]

Hello,

how are your brushsettings. Important: steps should be at 10 percent.

The PL Help says:

Steps specifies the distance between two brush points while drawing. The value is given in percent of the brush size. If the value is small (e.g. 10), the result is a continuous line:

Brush Settings.jpg

Regards
Helmut

[jw2004]

It's no matter of line steps, it seems that the brush redraw is a time cosuming process, the mouse point redraw is very fast process( because it is redrawed by the system), so the brush redraw can't synchronize to mouse point. The file is more complex, the lagging is more obvious. sometimes, even the mouse point is stopping, the brush still can't synchronize to it.

BTW: If PL file is a little complex, PL's process speed become very slow, obviously slower than Photoshop.

Maybe PL should optimize the brush redrawing.

[photoken]

It's no matter of line steps, it seems that the brush redraw is a time cosuming process, the mouse point redraw is very fast process( because it is redrawed by the system), so the brush redraw can't synchronize to mouse point. The file is more complex, the lagging is more obvious. sometimes, even the mouse point is stopping, the brush still can't synchronize to it.

BTW: If PL file is a little complex, PL's process speed become very slow, obviously slower than Photoshop.

Maybe PL should optimize the brush redrawing.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. For example if you load a large photograph and convert it to a vector layer, you get a lot of individual vector layers and painting on a mask layer for the vector group lags so much as to be unusable.

[Herbert123]

It's no matter of line steps, it seems that the brush redraw is a time cosuming process, the mouse point redraw is very fast process( because it is redrawed by the system), so the brush redraw can't synchronize to mouse point. The file is more complex, the lagging is more obvious. sometimes, even the mouse point is stopping, the brush still can't synchronize to it.

BTW: If PL file is a little complex, PL's process speed become very slow, obviously slower than Photoshop.

Maybe PL should optimize the brush redrawing.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. For example if you load a large photograph and convert it to a vector layer, you get a lot of individual vector layers and painting on a mask layer for the vector group lags so much as to be unusable.

That is to be expected with complex files - Photoline does not seem to "fix" the vector group and updates the entire layer stack, as far as I can tell. This is one of the reasons why Photoshop, for example, introduced smart objects (which have their drawbacks, but they are not recalculated all the time).

There is a solution in Photoline: use the same approach as a "smart object". When I encounter slowdowns in my layer stack, I save the file, and create a new file (same dimensions). Then I load up the first pld file as an external file/placeholder layer. This means I can still work on the original when needed, and applying a layer mask is quick and effortless. Externally placed files are not recalculated all the time.

This will work in the beta version, or wait a week (or so) until version 19 is out.

I think the brush engine is fast enough in general (heck, I have had slowdowns with Photoshop when Photoline would have much faster performance under certain circumstances) - having a non-destructive layer stack with many effects will slow down any machine.

Having said that, I do wish there would be an option to "fix" a layer group, or something, and prevent it from recalculating its content, or treat it as a cached static bitmap layer. For example, a new "treat as static bitmap" or "cached" option in the layer properties panel for layer groups would be an excellent addition. The external file work-around is workable, although not exactly convenient.

[Martin Huber]

Some remarks:
- Isolated groups are cached.
- Most people with "lagging" brushes turned on "Smoothing" in the tool settings. Usually, the reason is not the complexity of the document.
- If someone thinks PhotoLine would be too slow in a certain situation, he should provide a sample document to reproduce the effect. Otherwise there is nothing we can do about it.

Martin

[photoken]

Photoline does not seem to "fix" the vector group and updates the entire layer stack, as far as I can tell.

Yes, that's my impression, too. When painting on the mask for the vector group to hide areas, it's as if the mask is constantly being re-calculated for every vector layer.

There is a solution in Photoline: use the same approach as a "smart object". When I encounter slowdowns in my layer stack, I save the file, and create a new file (same dimensions). Then I load up the first pld file as an external file/placeholder layer. This means I can still work on the original when needed, and applying a layer mask is quick and effortless. Externally placed files are not recalculated all the time.

Sounds good. I'll try that out -- thanks for the tip.

I think the brush engine is fast enough in general

Eh. This is something I'm really concerned about because PaintShopPro has been notorious for years about it's significant lag when painting, even on simple files. I think it's important for PL to always look for ways to optimize its painting strokes so that the lag is reduced to an absolute minimum. Doing so will be a real competitive advantage, IMO.

[photoken]

- Most people with "lagging" brushes turned on "Smoothing" in the tool settings. Usually, the reason is not the complexity of the document.

Actually, for the example I cited, turning off the "Smoothing" was the first thing I tried.

- If someone thinks PhotoLine would be too slow in a certain situation, he should provide a sample document to reproduce the effect. Otherwise there is nothing we can do about it.

Yes, I understand that. Later today, I'll redo the my test and save the PLD document. I'll have to submit it to you via email to support, because the PLD file will be way too large to attach in a forum post.

[bkh]

Having said that, I do wish there would be an option to "fix" a layer group, or something, and prevent it from recalculating its content, or treat it as a cached static bitmap layer.

This isn't possible for (normal) layer groups since the layers are applied to the background one by one (just as if there was no group).

As Martin wrote, caching works for isolated groups (whose contents are calculated independently and then merged with the background). Ff your group has layer modes other than "Normal", partial transparency, adjustment layers etc, the result may be different for isolated groups.

I believe that PL also uses caching for layers with child layers (which are very similar to isolated groups).

Cheers

Burkhard.

[photoken]

- If someone thinks PhotoLine would be too slow in a certain situation, he should provide a sample document to reproduce the effect. Otherwise there is nothing we can do about it.

Yes, I understand that. Later today, I'll redo the my test and save the PLD document. I'll have to submit it to you via email to support, because the PLD file will be way too large to attach in a forum post.

Done.

[jw2004]

Even in the simplest scenario, the lagging is serious.

My test:
1. Create a 800*800 image
2. Set forecolor to Pure Black(0,0,0), use brush to paint
3. Drag the mouse not quickly, draw some stokes, the lagging is seen.
4. finally, I stop moving mouse, the brush stop too, so the gap between the mouse and the brush does not decrease.

You can download my test video.
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1jGgTiGA

[Martin Huber]

Even in the simplest scenario, the lagging is serious.

My test:
1. Create a 800*800 image
2. Set forecolor to Pure Black(0,0,0), use brush to paint
3. Drag the mouse not quickly, draw some stokes, the lagging is seen.
4. finally, I stop moving mouse, the brush stop too, so the gap between the mouse and the brush does not decrease.

That't not lagging, but curve interpolation. In order to enable better curve interpolation between the mouse positions, PhotoLine doesn't perform painting for the last mouse position. So if you are moving the mouse very fast, there will be a distance between the mouse and the last drawing position.

Martin

[jw2004]

Even in the simplest scenario, the lagging is serious.

My test:
1. Create a 800*800 image
2. Set forecolor to Pure Black(0,0,0), use brush to paint
3. Drag the mouse not quickly, draw some stokes, the lagging is seen.
4. finally, I stop moving mouse, the brush stop too, so the gap between the mouse and the brush does not decrease.

That't not lagging, but curve interpolation. In order to enable better curve interpolation between the mouse positions, PhotoLine doesn't perform painting for the last mouse position. So if you are moving the mouse very fast, there will be a distance between the mouse and the last drawing position.

Martin

In fact, I do not move mouse very fast, the distance is very long, if the file is more complex, the distance is more long, even the mouse moving speed is very slow. If you want paint at A, you should drag mouse past A for a long and uncertain distance.
I don't think it is a good idea that the paint position is not same as mouse position.
In ps, no matter how the mouse move fast, paint position is synchronize to mouse position.

[Herbert123]

Even in the simplest scenario, the lagging is serious.

My test:
1. Create a 800*800 image
2. Set forecolor to Pure Black(0,0,0), use brush to paint
3. Drag the mouse not quickly, draw some stokes, the lagging is seen.
4. finally, I stop moving mouse, the brush stop too, so the gap between the mouse and the brush does not decrease.

That't not lagging, but curve interpolation. In order to enable better curve interpolation between the mouse positions, PhotoLine doesn't perform painting for the last mouse position. So if you are moving the mouse very fast, there will be a distance between the mouse and the last drawing position.

Martin

In fact, I do not move mouse very fast, the distance is very long, if the file is more complex, the distance is more long, even the mouse moving speed is very slow. If you want paint at A, you should drag mouse past A for a long and uncertain distance.
I don't think it is a good idea that the paint position is not same as mouse position.
In ps, no matter how the mouse move fast, paint position is synchronize to mouse position.

In Photoshop, when you zoom out, and start drawing with a thin line, you will get horrible interpolation - resulting in jagged lines with twitches. With Photoline that never happens with a bit of stroke smoothing active.

I paint in Krita, ClipStudio, and Photoline, and it is true that Photoline's paint cursor position is not identical to the mouse cursor - but it has not bothered me so far. And when you look closely to Photoshop's cursor, you will notice the exact same behaviour - it is just that in Photoshop the actual paint cursor is hidden...