Editing Layer Masks

[cathodeRay]

I'm new to PhotoLine but am already quite impressed, though the manual is a bit brief!

I've managed to work out a number of things (like how to save edited brushes: you have to have the brush list visible and use the context menu) but two things I can't get to work. The first is editing a layer mask. Say I want to apply an effect on three borders of an image. I create a new layer, fill with black, add three white to transparent gradients, and add it as a layer mask for the previous adjustment layer. So far so good. I notice the layer mask is now also the internal AL mask. Say I now want to add a softened circle of transparency (using a soft white circle, white being 100% transparent, black opaque, grey ranged in between etc) in the middle of the layer mask (or otherwise alter the layer mask). I select the mask layer and only that layer - but I cannot get the layer mask greyscale image to show, despite it showing in the thumbnail: all I get is transparent background. I can even edit on the main image and see the effect in the thumbnail, but not on the main image, which makes getting the detail right hard: see the screengrab below from just such an experiment (never mind the maxed out sponge effect - I'm just using it so the effect is easily visible). How do I get the greyscale image to show in the main editing window? I've tried toggling everything I can!

The other related thing is how to get multiple child layer masks to affect the parent adjustment layer? At the moment, the adjustment layer seems to use only the nearest (top) child?

Many thanks for any help!

cathodeRay

Layer Mask Invisible.jpg

[cathodeRay]

OK, I think I have answered the first question after a lot of clicking around: you have to Alt-Click twice on the thumbnail (the directions are very specific) to get the layer mask to show up as a greyscale image. The first Alt-Click only selects the layer... I'm still working out which mask buttons in the top left of the screen need to be on/off (not that easy to know when a button is on or off in the PL UI by the way) to get a clean working interface.

Reading around the forum, it does seem I am not the only one who has struggled with PL's masks/layer masks/selections/lassoos and 'special channels' (maybe they should be called secret channels...). Since working efficiently with these things is IMO essential to efficient photo editing it would be good to have a clear presentation of how to do this.

I still can't get multiple layer masks on one parent adjustment layer to work: the AL always uses the nearest (top) child mask.

cathodeRay

[Hoogo]

1) The layer mask will be visible when you turn off the adjustment(s).
You can do that with "view > panels > adjustment layer" or with "view > panels > layer attributes"

Don't know how you managed to see the mask only by clicking, I could not achieve this. A right-click on the eye/scissors-symbol in the layer list shows the options, for me it's easier than remembering all combinations of keys.

Multiple masks is not difficult. Just add a mask if you want to remove more from the layer. For more complicated combinations of masks you can start with a group and then turn that into a layer mask. The layers within the group allow layer modes.

[cathodeRay]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

I have followed the menu directions you provided but can't actually see anywhere to turn off (or turn on if it's off) the adjustment layer. However, if you look at the screengrab above you will note that the adjustment layer is neither visible nor selected - about as off as it can be without deleting it.

I have just verified the only way I can get the greyscale version of the layer mask and can edit it is by two Alt-Left-Clicks on the layer mask's thumbnail (not icon). It does seem fairly reliable, rather than being some sort of voodoo going on in the mouse. Once the greyscale mask is visible, Alt-Left-Click (once) on the thumbnail toggles the visibility of the other layers on and off. Note I am not doing anything to the layer mask's icon, it's all happening on the thumbnail.

Thanks for the layer masks image. I can see multiple masks working there but - I think I've got this right - there's a curious anomaly. In the lower parent and two children example, the masks appear to be added on an 'and/or' basis, ie if either of the masks has masking present at the pixel, masking applies, but in the upper grouped example, it seems the mix is 'and' ie both masks have to be present (the overlap area) for the mask to be applied. Another way this difference can be seen is in the fact the bottom cumulative mask (ie the black masked area) is L shaped, while the upper one is rectangular, though both are derive from two bars. Odd or intentional? Very confusing though!

cathodeRay

[Herbert123]

I'm new to PhotoLine but am already quite impressed, though the manual is a bit brief!

The other related thing is how to get multiple child layer masks to affect the parent adjustment layer? At the moment, the adjustment layer seems to use only the nearest (top) child?

Many thanks for any help!

cathodeRay

1) Insert an adjustment layer
2) add a layer mask to adjustment layer
3) group the layer mask (select, and right-mouse click --> Group Marked Layers or CTRL SHIFT INSERT

Photoline automatically converts the group to a layer mask group, and the layer mask is converted to a normal layer.

4) enter the group, select the layer mask, and insert a new (transparent) layer. Paint.

Keep in mind that the layers inside the layer mask group behave like a regular layer stack. This means other adjustment layers can be added, layer effects may be applied, opacity sliders work, and you may have to switch to different blend modes depending on your needs and the content of the layer masks.

And, of course, layer masks may have layer masks affecting them as well

The opacity slider will not affect a layer masks overall effect - however, grouping that layer mask allows for opacity control of the layer mask components nested in a group. I often convert a layer mask to a group, and control the overall effect of the mask by changing the opacity of the mask inside the group.

Also do not forget that it is possible to clone and instantiate layer masks and groups, for re-use. Change the original, and all the virtual clones update in real time (which in turn can be part of other layer mask groups).
The possibilities with masks are quite stunning in Photoline.

For more flexible than, let's say, Photoshop

Good luck learning more about masking in Photoline. Feel free to keep asking questions. It is one of my favourite parts of Photoline.

[photoken]

Reading around the forum, it does seem I am not the only one who has struggled with PL's masks/layer masks/selections/lassoos and 'special channels' (maybe they should be called secret channels...). Since working efficiently with these things is IMO essential to efficient photo editing it would be good to have a clear presentation of how to do this.

Hopefully this tutorial
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... 434#p32252
can help with the basic concepts of PL's masks, lassos, and layer masks.

[cathodeRay]

Thanks for your prompt and helpful replies. It is a pleasure to come across such a forum. I do sense PL has enormous potential, once the basic to intermediate concepts have been grasped.

Ken - I did read your tutorial earlier, and thought I was getting somewhere, and then ran the same steps on an image here and by the end of it, my brain felt a bit like the images in the tutorial!

Herbert - I did try following your instructions but I had the same problems as before (the main window shows only the transparent chequerboard pattern, but the thumbnails are correct eg if I do a fountain fill of white the thumbnail updates to show that but the main window doesn't) and this time the Alt-Left-Click x2 trick doesn't work, and the layer mask group layer continues to use only the nearest (top) child under it. I can see the layer group layer as a greyscale, but that doesn't really help because it is only the top-most child mask, and furthermore, presumably intentionally as it is a group, it can't be edited. I can't explain why the layer masks image (see zip file above) did appear to allow multiple layer masks to be cumulative (albeit with some anomalies - see above), whereas images created from scratch by me don't... I can't see any difference in settings that might account for that, and it is still the same PL throughout.

I shall continue to experiment. Any further tips/pointers if you have them would be much appreciated!

cathodeRay

[cathodeRay]

PS A screengrab showing the lower child masks not being added to the parent, only the top nearest one is used.

layer stack.jpg

cathodeRay

[photoken]

I did read your tutorial earlier, and thought I was getting somewhere, and then ran the same steps on an image here and by the end of it, my brain felt a bit like the images in the tutorial!

Welcome to the club!

Seriously, though, when your brain turns into fudge that's a good time to take a break.... We all went through this, the more you keep at it, the more sense it will make.

[Herbert123]

PS A screengrab showing the lower child masks not being added to the parent, only the top nearest one is used.
cathodeRay

Remember that the group inside the layer mask group behaves just like a regular layer stack: the top layer in your layer group hides the content in the layers below, because a) no transparent areas are present, and b) the blend mode is set to "normal".

Here is an example how it would work with both one transparent layer, and one layer of which the blend mode is set to multiply:

Untitled.png

[photoken]

The other related thing is how to get multiple child layer masks to affect the parent adjustment layer? At the moment, the adjustment layer seems to use only the nearest (top) child?

Let's start simply --

1. Do not make any selection.
2. Create an adjustment layer. The adjustment layer's image in the Layers panel will be all white.
3. With the adjustment layer as the active layer, click on the mask icon at the bottom of the Layer panel and choose "Create". You will get a child mask for the adjustment layer, and the child mask will be all white.
4. Repeat step #3 two more times.
5. Select one of the child masks and apply any painting or gradient to it.
6. Repeat step #5 for the other two child masks.

Your layers look like this, and you can see that the effect of the child masks is cumulative:

adjustment layer masks.png

As a matter of principle, I try to never create a lasso before creating an adjustment layer because I want the adjustment layer's initial mask to be all white -- I've found it much easier to modify and adjust adjustment layers masks by manually creating child masks for the adjustment layer as above.

[bkh]

OK, I think I have answered the first question after a lot of clicking around: you have to Alt-Click twice on the thumbnail (the directions are very specific) to get the layer mask to show up as a greyscale image. The first Alt-Click only selects the layer...

Yes, that's intended behaviour. Alt-Clicking on the thumbnail icon of the active layer toggles between the adjustment and display of the "mask" used by the adjustment (this mask is called a "special channel" in PL's lingo. You can also switch to this channel using the "Channels" panel, btw.)

I'm still working out which mask buttons in the top left of the screen need to be on/off (not that easy to know when a button is on or off in the PL UI by the way) to get a clean working interface.

You mean the mask/lasso icons in the toolbar? They don't have anything to do with layer masks or special channels. In PL, "mask", "lasso" and "selection" all refer essentially to the same thing. Roughly speaking, the mask is the area insde the lasso, and the selection is the picture content inside the lasso.

I still can't get multiple layer masks on one parent adjustment layer to work: the AL always uses the nearest (top) child mask.

I think this is because you have set your topmost layer mask to "visible" (the "eye" in the leftmost box in the layer panel shows). Just click on it to switch it off or use its context menu.

Cheers

Burkhard.

[Hoogo]

Yes, that's intended behaviour. Alt-Clicking on the thumbnail icon of the active layer toggles between the adjustment and display of the "mask" used by the adjustment (this mask is called a "special channel" in PL's lingo. You can also switch to this channel using the "Channels" panel, btw.)

Doesn't work for me, in the example file above I only get a black screen with a "layer-rectangle", not marching ants, around the white area.

[bkh]

Yes, that's intended behaviour. Alt-Clicking on the thumbnail icon of the active layer toggles between the adjustment and display of the "mask" used by the adjustment (this mask is called a "special channel" in PL's lingo. You can also switch to this channel using the "Channels" panel, btw.)

Doesn't work for me, in the example file above I only get a black screen with a "layer-rectangle", not marching ants, around the white area.

Jusst tried your example file, works here. I don't get marching ants (the lasso) either (this is CMD-click, or Ctrl-click if you use Windows). Here, the main window just looks like an enlarged version of the thumbnail in the layer panel. (Alt-click really just turns on the special channel and turns off all other channels, after all, the shortcuts are described at the end of Section 4.7 in the PL manual).

Cheers

Burkhard.

[Hoogo]

Jusst tried your example file, works here. I don't get marching ants (the lasso) either (this is CMD-click, or Ctrl-click if you use Windows). Here, the main window just looks like an enlarged version of the thumbnail in the layer panel.

Found that my mask color is black. I see something when I switch to magenta, but still this is not an enlarged version of the thumbnail.