Hiding Selections & Child Layers

[Alan9940]

Hello All,

I thought I knew this, but today I'm baffled... A couple of questions for the experts here:

1. Is there a way to hide a selection with a dialog box open? For example, say I use the Free Lasso to create a selection, then initiate a Curves adjustment layer...Can I hide that selection without having to close/re-open the Curves dialog?

2. And, here I thought I understood child layers and how they work! Why is it when I create a child layer to a parent layer above that contains a mask, the child layer wants to affect only the mask? Going back to my example in #1...let's say I wish to create a child Hue Editor to the masked Curves layer above. Easy 'nuff to create it, but the child is affecting the mask! Huh?

Thanks for any insight provided.

Kind regards,
Alan

[photoken]

1. Is there a way to hide a selection with a dialog box open? For example, say I use the Free Lasso to create a selection, then initiate a Curves adjustment layer...Can I hide that selection without having to close/re-open the Curves dialog?

No. The adjustment layer dialog is "modal", which means that it sucks up all input.

2. And, here I thought I understood child layers and how they work! Why is it when I create a child layer to a parent layer above that contains a mask, the child layer wants to affect only the mask? Going back to my example in #1...let's say I wish to create a child Hue Editor to the masked Curves layer above. Easy 'nuff to create it, but the child is affecting the mask! Huh?

I don't know why it does that. After creating the first masked adjustment layer, you'll just have to use Tool...Lasso...Redo Last Lasso to recall the lasso before creating your next adjustment layer for the image itself (not as a child to the first adjustment layer).

The exceptions to that are cases where you want an adjustment layer to affect the edges of the previous layer's mask -- Gaussian Blur, Minimum, Roughen, etc. Then you'll create a child layer of the previous layer, but it will still be affecting the mask....

[bkh]

1. Is there a way to hide a selection with a dialog box open? For example, say I use the Free Lasso to create a selection, then initiate a Curves adjustment layer...Can I hide that selection without having to close/re-open the Curves dialog?

You can create the Curves adjustment layer via the Adjustment Layer panel which is non-modal, i.e., you can use the entire GUI while making adjustments. However, if you create that adjustment layer, it's still created using the current mask – the adjustment layer doesn't change if you change the lasso/mask. But of course, you can fill the adjustment layer with white while working with it.

2. And, here I thought I understood child layers and how they work! Why is it when I create a child layer to a parent layer above that contains a mask, the child layer wants to affect only the mask? Going back to my example in #1...let's say I wish to create a child Hue Editor to the masked Curves layer above. Easy 'nuff to create it, but the child is affecting the mask! Huh?

Not entirely sure what you mean – if the Hue Editor layer is created as a child layer to the Curves layer, then just uncheck the "chain" icon (next to the "eye" icon in the lower right corner of the dialogue), then it'll be on the same level as the Curves layer and affect the original image.

Cheers

Burkhard.

[Alan9940]

Not entirely sure what you mean – if the Hue Editor layer is created as a child layer to the Curves layer, then just uncheck the "chain" icon (next to the "eye" icon in the lower right corner of the dialogue), then it'll be on the same level as the Curves layer and affect the original image.

Hi Burkhard,

Yes, I know how to "chain" or "unchain" a child layer. I'll try to explain, again, what I'm trying to do...

1. I've made a selection and created, say, a Curves adjustment layer; that layer now contains the curves adjustment along with the mask created based on the selection.

2. Now I want to create a Hue/Saturation or Hue Editor child layer to the Curves layer above and be able to affect, say, saturation only.

In other words, I would like the child layer to respect the masked image area, not the actual mask attached to the Curves layer. Does this make more sense? Ken seems to understand exactly what I'm trying to do. I can certainly re-call the prior selection and create any new adjustment layer with the same mask as the mask created in #1 above, but that seems a waste of file space to me! Now I have extra masks in my image file that to my mind shouldn't be necessary. If the child layer would affect the image while respecting the mask of the parent, then I'd have less masks around.

Kind regards,
Alan

[Alan9940]

Thank you, Ken. For now, I'll just follow your suggestion.

Kind regards,
Alan

[photoken]

Hey, Alan,

If you don't want to have many mask layers to worry about, then you can do it this way using a group:

mask group.jpg

1. Create the adjustment layers you'll need.
2. Group those adjustment layers.
3. Drag the group to make it a child layer of the original image.
4. Create a mask for the group. It'll be all white, IOW "Create from Mask" will be unavailable.
5. Use Tool...Color...Invert to change the mask to all black.
6. Create your lasso (or recall the previous lasso).
7. With that group's mask layer active, fill the lasso with white.

The adjustment layers that are part of that group will all respect the group's mask.

(Edit:
Instead of steps 4-7, you can create a lasso for the original image and use "Create from Mask" to create the mask. Then drag it so it becomes the mask for the adjustment layers group.)

That seems rather cumbersome and somewhat inefficient to me, however. I prefer to create one "Master" mask (or clipping layer) and use virtual copies of that "Master" to mask any adjustment layers, as needed:

VC masks.jpg

The file size won't be affected much, since the additional masks are virtual copies.

I like the VC method because it gives me more flexibility (like inverting the VC when needed), and I like the organization of the Layers panel showing exactly what each layer is doing.

Each method will work -- it's just a matter of personal preference.

[photoken]

2. Now I want to create a Hue/Saturation or Hue Editor child layer to the Curves layer above and be able to affect, say, saturation only.

OK, now that I've had some time to think about this, I hope I can explain why child layers work the way they do:

An adjustment layer does not contain any image pixels -- it's just a formula that describes how to affect its parent layer's pixels, so it's illogical to want to create an adjustment layer that affects the image pixels of it's parent adjustment layer. Since the only pixels in an adjustment layer are the pixels in its mask, those are the only pixels that can be affected by a child adjustment layer.

Clear as mud?

[Hoogo]

In other words, I would like the child layer to respect the masked image area, not the actual mask attached to the Curves layer. Does this make more sense?

Seems this method wasn't mentioned yet: With the dialog "adjustment layer" you can not only adjust non-modal an create adjustment layers, add more than one adjustment to a layer. In the layer list you can see 1 layer containing the mask, and 2 works added to it.

[bkh]

In other words, I would like the child layer to respect the masked image area, not the actual mask attached to the Curves layer.

In that case, you can just add a hue adjustment to your curves adjustment layer (using the Adjustment Layer panel) – it allows you to apply any combination of adjustments to the same image area. This is probably the most memory-efficient way. Another advantage is that you can easily modify all adjustments at once, without going through modal dialogues.

Of course, a clipping layer or virtual copies (as suggested by Ken) will also work, choose whatever fits your workflow best.

Cheers

Burkhard.

EDIT: Hoogo was faster …

[Alan9940]

Ken - thanks for the additional suggested workflow! Grouping the adjustments and masking the group makes perfect sense to me. In thinking more about it, your explanation as to why the child layer works as it does makes perfect sense, too! Duh, of course...any adjustment layer must affect pixels and, since the only available actual pixels is the mask? Yep, that's what it wants to reference.

Hoogo - If I'm understanding what you're telling me... How do I add multiple adjustments to the same layer? I tried creating two adjustment layers and dragging one on top of the other, but that just creates a parent/child relationship and winds up being the same issue I originally posted.

Thank you all for your help.

Kind regards,
Alan

[photoken]

How do I add multiple adjustments to the same layer?

1. Create your first adjustment layer (Curves, in this case).
2. With that adjustment layer active, open the Adjustment Layers panel.
3. Use the tiny little icon (with the plus sign) at the top right -- the "Add Adjustment" icon:
   adj layer add.jpg

(Either "plus" icon will work, the only difference is whether the additional adjustment is added at the top or bottom of the adjustments stack.)

[Alan9940]

Hi Ken,

OMG...once again, I'm sitting here stunned at the power of PL! I didn't even know that the "Adjustment Layer" panel existed enabling one to add multiple adjustments onto the same layer in the layer stack. Mask the whole "group" and done. Simple! Beautiful!!

Thanks to both you and Hoogo for enlightening me!

Kind regards,
Alan

[Hoogo]

ANd still something can be added: You can use that dialog to add work to text, vector or groups.

[photoken]

But wait...There's more!

If you have a series of adjustments that you'll often use, you can save the entire adjustment thingy as a preset and apply everything with a single click. I use this for the RAW images from my LF1: I've created a preset that uses a dozen adjustment "layers" and start my RAW processing by applying that preset to give me a real good starting point.

[Alan9940]

But wait...There's more!

HaHa...OK, now you're just channeling Russell Brown!!

Kind regards,
Alan