Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

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mrocha
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Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by mrocha »

First I want to say the Quick Selection is not quite bad, but I think would be much better, for instance when you mark the rectangle sometimes the first automatic mask is not perfect, but is good, look the image 1, PL don't selected well the hair on hand, the shoe, and the skirt, all in the left side, and have some wrong selections on chest not removed by Despeckle tool, so I added some yellow marks in this points, but PL destroyed the first selection, look the image 2, look at the left leg and between the legs, and the right arm. Why? Because each mark you add, PL process the full area again, I want to suggest at least a setting, to force the PL process just the region that I added the new yellow marks, and left alone the selection far from the new points, this can avoid this issue and also reduce the use of CPU. Would be good also add new tools, like a Compute Brush, so the user can mark the object and PL can keep the selection border under control, this brush is present on the old Topaz Remask 4, that I continue to use, this plugin have a lot of tools and behaviors that I think PL would "copy", like this brush, the Fills, and Magic Brush that you can use just to fix specific areas with few clicks, and buttons to switch between mask, extracted object, etc, is very useful, easy and intuitive to use. PL would add also the Enhance Edge button to Mask Brush and Quick Section tools. And I know that have the Border Matting brush to hair and etc, but this tool is not so good, more one time I want suggest a good look on Topaz Remask, the Compute Brush and the Magic Brush is much more easy, intuitive and effective, also Remask have some extra controls very useful look at the image 4, I know some of this features I can do in PL using other tools, but is not easy as in Remask. This is my humble suggestions, would be nice the community also give some suggestions in this topic, to make the PL masking better. I'm on v22.51, so if something is different on the new version, just ignore. Thanks!
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mrocha
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by mrocha »

Seem that everyone is happy with PL masking tools and the issues is just with me, :D
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Hoogo
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by Hoogo »

mrocha wrote: Fri 01 Jul 2022 03:19Seem that everyone is happy with PL masking tools and the issues is just with me, :D
I found a big version here

Just like you I find that the first result is quite good. Not perfect, but good, at least when you don't peep the pixels.
I have a more technical view on that topic and check the pic for problematic features first.
- What kind of edges are there?
In general sharp edges (nice), except for the hair and the skirt
- What about colors, color channels or "virtual" color channels?
The wallpaper contains some kind of skin tone, the mirror frame has some hair color, and the dark areas are close to the skirt and shoes. Poor contrast between face and background.
- What about semitransparent areas?
Skirt an hair. Skirt has one color (good) in front of different backgrounds (not good, but probably it can be handled), hair slightly mixed colors (OK) in front of a simple patterned wallpaper (good), and the hair in front of the mirror frame is just horror.

So when I think of manual ways I find that I would have to combine at least 3-4 different masks, restore some color in hair and skirt and some manual work, and maybe have to paint new hair in front of the mirror frame, and maybe have separate layers for skirt and rest.
Honestly: I wouldn't even have tried the automatic tool!! Fixing the problems of the result will take longer than doing a right manual mask from the start.

But also, I gained my experience on that topic like 10 years ago, so I have some ideas how I would solve such problems or how I would code a tool. That was before AI became a topic. I wonder what other masking tools can make out of that picture?
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mrocha
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by mrocha »

Thanks Hoogo for the participation, first I want say, I used this picture just as a example, I know this picture is bad for automatic tools, is because it I choose this one. I agree with you that many times we need combine several tools to make a good mask, and my objective with the suggestions is not make a PERFECT automatic masking tool, but at least a better one. As I said if PL just process the region I added the new yellow marks, keeping alone regions far from it, just this change can make this automatic section much more usable, fast and effective, and I agree sometimes fix the automatic selection is more work than do a manual selection, but keeping the good regions intact can make the fixing work much easier and maybe the automatic way will be a reasonable option, even used as a step for the full work. For instance the old Tapaz Remask 4 that I still using, is this a perfect making tool? ABSOLUTELY NO! Far from it, but help a lot! Many times I use the Remask, as a "Remask", so, I use some PL tools and after I send to Remask to finalize, because with Remask is much easier and better to make a finish, as I said using the Magic Brushs and the Adjustments as the Color Recovery and Edge Shift. And as another topic I made, just a Undo shortcut using backspace, can make the Quick Selection much more usable. So I think the PL automatic selection will continue imperfect but would be much better. But thanks again for your participation and opinions, you think the PL automatic making is already perfect? What you think would be implemented to make it better? I think is interesting others users also put here ideas, for instance our big friend Herbert123 posted in another forum in 2020 the follow:

https://blenderartists.org/t/photoline- ... ut/1210333

[/quote]

Aside from the default GUI, other things PhotoLine is lacking in:

painting tools are okay’ish (inking is very good though), but are in need of an update.

No mixing/blend brush, and compared to other brush engines it is rather basic. The painting tools’ GUI is rather technical. Needs to be more artist friendly.

no photo stacking, no panorama stitching. The devs are working on stitching, though.

no page templates/master pages (yet?).

new file dialog really needs an overhaul which includes visual presets.

preset management for fills, patterns, etc. needs an update to improve asset management. It is workable, but somewhat painful.

automatic masking (hair, for example) needs an update and be improved.

no symbols.

colour picker needs update. Trangle wheel would be nice.
animation function should be integrated in the main viewport.

[/code]

I agree with Herbert123 in some of this ideas, would be nice, the community post here things like it, in this forum, to make clear what we, the users need to improve on PL. For instance I'm sure that is not just me that want better masking tools, as you can see on Herbert123 comment, but after 76 views just you participate here, because all of us like the PL, we support the PL, the objective is not the offense, but absolutely, have a lot of things that need improviments on PL, and the silence don't help. Thanks your participation!
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shijan
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by shijan »

PhotoLine community is very small, so don't expect hundreds of quick replies here :) A lot of Herbert123's requests form 2020 already exist in PhotoLine 2022 (photo stacking, panorama stitching, animation panel). You can also see huge amount of improvements and bugfixes based on my suggestions here https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6297

Sure everybody want UI improvements, better tools, more presets and small handy useful things. But for my opinion before that PhotoLine need to fix some more basic legacy problems. Like use Gaussian Blur instead of Box Blur for Mask soft edge. Use 16 bit depth instead of 8 bit depth for Mask soft edges and Brushes, and other described in other forum threads and email lists...
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302
mrocha
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by mrocha »

Thanks! :D You said about presets, I agree, including some modern presets to Charts and other Charts types, would be awesome, like this:
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shijan
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by shijan »

I didn't mean Clip Art templates, i mean more essential presets like for New Image or for Grey Mixer sliders and other filters... But well, PL is sort of spartan app and so users should do all presets and templates by yourself. I personally totally happy with it :)
ImageImage
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302
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shijan
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by shijan »

As for masks, i guess there is no any automatic tool that will give you perfect result on one click in complicated situation. So i can only suggest to start with Automatic Lasso or Quick Selection, then create image-based mask layer, and then paint (edit) mask manually in complicated places. Enable "Clear with right mouse button (no menu)" in Working->Cursor preferences to use right mouse button as eraser may speedup things a lot. Also i prefer to use Blur Filter Instead of Mask Soft Edge (because Blur Filter is more accurate blur type and support 16 bit depth).
Hair masking is totally special task, so it always should be done separately.

P.S. "Undo" for Quick Selection tool sounds like good idea. Not sure why, but Undo don't works with Quick Selection and Crop tools in PhotoLine.
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PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302
mrocha
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by mrocha »

I didn't mean Clip Art templates,


I know, I just take the opportunity to add this suggestion, I think that Charts is a nice feature on PL, and really useful, and of course I know this is not the priority for devs, but would be nice add modern presets and more chart types, if possible, an day, :) I personally use a lot of charts in my works, and imagine make charts like the ones I posted above easily using just presets on PL, this will be incredible!
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der_fotograf
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by der_fotograf »

The software carries the very convincing name »PhotoLine«. Not Chartline. Maybe you should use a different software to generate your charts and import the results. PhotoLine is an image editor, not a chart maker.

If you don't like that option, I guess you are in the wrong forum and should look elsewhere for a solution.

The more non image editing features will be integrated into this software, the less I will use it.
Nur wenige wissen, wie viel man wissen muss, um zu wissen, wie wenig man weiss.
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Hoogo
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by Hoogo »

shijan wrote: Sat 02 Jul 2022 01:06Sure everybody want UI improvements, better tools, more presets and small handy useful things....
i mean more essential presets like for New Image or for Grey Mixer sliders and other filters... But well, PL is sort of spartan app and so users should do all presets and templates by yourself.
These could be another user project. At least some of he patterns, textures, shortcuts and menus were made by me.
Just don't expect that everything will be used.
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by Hoogo »

shijan wrote: Sat 02 Jul 2022 01:43 ...suggest to start with Automatic Lasso or Quick Selection, then create image-based mask layer, and then paint (edit) mask manually in complicated places...
My tipical start for complicated stuff looks like this:
Masking.jpg
1) 2 duplicates
2) Group the upper one, set the property "draw encapsulated"
3) Turn the group into a layer mask for the previous.

The mask at this point is useless, just based on the brightness of the picture.
But it's a useful frame.

4) Added 2 vectors, white for the torso, black for the hole between face and arm.

I can turn on/off the background to switch between the complete picture and my result.
A click on the group switches between result and mask view.
And I have a copy nearby to add some mask elements based on filters.
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mrocha
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Re: Masking Improviments (Suggestions)

Post by mrocha »

Thanks Hoogo, good tips about masking I also use more than one layer some times, and more "user projects" will be a good idea really, like the shijan icon project, maybe the users should start to post here, presets, actions, even some tutorials, etc, is a good idea. :)

Replying to der_fotograf
The more non image editing features will be integrated into this software, the less I will use it.
sorry but this is with you, your problem, I can continue to use PL as ever, this is you choice not mine, I like PL a lot, and to me make a lot of sense this new Charts presets and new types, and in the same time you can use PL less with this features, I can use it more, :) and don't have a lot of "charts maker" in the market as you can imagine, is very few options, so this can even bring some people and money to PL devs.
The software carries the very convincing name »PhotoLine«. Not Chartline. PhotoLine is an image editor, not a chart maker.


Maybe would be good remove the charts feature completely, not just it, but also remove the Vector, DTP, Animation and other features not related with photo, because the name is not VectorLine, or DTPline or AnimationLine, so you can use PL more :) In really is not me that don't know what PL is, is you, PL is CLEARLY a multi function software, and is it that make PL a nice and special option. The name PhotoLine just say what was the software in the beginning, and devs just keep this name, why change it? But maybe will change the name to PhotoVectorDTPAnimationChartsandMoreLine. If you don't like the multi function feature of PL maybe is better you use something that work just with photo and anything else, you know the GIMP?
If you don't like that option, I guess you are in the wrong forum and should look elsewhere for a solution.


I like PL a lot, but my opinion and vision about the software is not the same as your vision, and I'm sure that devs don't think as you, because they implemented a lot of features not related with photo edition :) I just posted here my opinions, and suggestions, with all the respect, if you like, all right, if you don't like, I think is important to keep the respect by the other opinion, because maybe you don't like some of the suggestions, but other will like, for instance other day I make a suggestion to change a behavior of the fonts menu using the right click, and it was implemented, because the devs liked the idea (thanks devs!). My intention is not say that PL is bad, but I'm trying suggest some ideas to make it better, so keep the respect is the most important thing.